[GSBN] [SB-r-us] Re: earth floor odds and ends

[Bruce King]

Second the motion to include Harry Francis!

Thanks,

Bruce King
bruce at bruce-king.com
(415) 987-7271
Twitter: @brucekinggreen
blog: bruceking.posterous.com
Skype: brucekingokok

On Jan 7, 2012, at 8:41 AM, Bill Steen wrote:

> I'm forwarding this from the SB-R-us list these comments by Harry  
> Francis, who, since we've been expanding the boundaries of this  
> list, I would suggest for membership in that he is certainly one of  
> the most knowledgeable people in this country (planet) when it comes  
> to anything pertaining to lime.  So I guess I'm proposing him for  
> membership.
>
>
> Bill Steen
> bill at caneloproject.com
> www.caneloproject.com
> www.caneloproject.com/blog
> HC1 Box 324
> Elgin, AZ85611
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 7, 2012, at 9:00 AM, CALXA at aol.com wrote:
>
>> Hi Bill and the group,
>>
>> Just a few comments on clay floors....
>>
>>
>> I would expect "properly treated" clay floors to be extremely well  
>> suited
>> in areas where the clay content of the soil exceeds 10-12%. Then  
>> mixed with
>> 5% or so hydrated lime, makes a wonderful compactable floor. The pH  
>> of the
>> lime kills all bacteria, fungi and virus, and reacts with the  
>> silica (
>> clay) to make a calcium silicate mass (cement). Now, treated with  
>> oil, there is
>> a chemical reaction called saponification (soap making), resulting  
>> in a
>> water insoluble grease, which makes the floor water proof. (This is  
>> the same
>> chemical result that occurs if one has hard water, and when  
>> bathing, a
>> ring forms in the bathtub. This is the reaction between the oil on  
>> one's body
>> and the lime in the water).
>>
>> When adding lime to soils, if the clay content is not high enough,  
>> then the
>> cementing action does not occur... And, if adding too little lime,  
>> the
>> clay particles are agglomerated, creating soil particles that can  
>> be compacted
>> nicely, but are not water proofed. So, it is appropriate to  
>> determine the
>> amount of lime to be used. Also, the amount of lime needs to be  
>> sufficient
>> to raise the pH of the mixture to above 12 in order to control  
>> bacteria,
>> virus and fungi.
>>
>> I suggest one could take a quart sample of the soil, and place in a  
>> tub of
>> water. Then add hi-calcium hydrated lime to the mix, stirring, let  
>> settle,
>> and then reading the pH of the water. Add just enough lime to raise  
>> the pH
>> to 12+. (The silica in the Clay soil becomes chemically active  
>> above pH
>> 11).
>>
>> Now, if the floor is in an area of high moisture, it may be  
>> possible to
>> first placing a layer of treated soil, with oils mixed in, to make  
>> a water
>> proof lower level. Then add the remainder of lime treated soils,  
>> and compact.
>>
>> Once compacted, but still moist, treat the surface with a fatty  
>> acid - oil,
>> forming a layer of Water insoluble soap ( grease)...(interesting, one
>> makes water insoluble yellow wheel bearing grease by adding oils to  
>> a lime
>> water solution, at warm temperatures---just like the bath tub ring  
>> is formed.).
>>
>> Happy New Year to all...
>>
>>
>> Harry Francis
>>
>> .
>>
>> In a message dated 1/6/2012 12:23:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
>> bill at caneloproject.com writes:
>>
>> On Jan 5, 2012, at 6:31 PM, RT wrote:
>>
>> Actually he wrote a whole lot of things that I will try to keep  
>> short. And
>> given the nature of my response to Rob Tom's comments, I'll change  
>> the
>> thread to that of earth floor generalities.
>> And thanks Bruce for waking us up. Just for clarity what I've  
>> written is
>> not in defense of earthen floors nor in the interest of promoting  
>> them, but
>> rather one of clearing up what I would consider to be misconceptions.
>>
>> The first of Rob's comments had to deal with soil borne illnesses.  
>> Without
>> research I suspect the list is long. In our part of the world, one  
>> of the
>> most common is Valley Fever that results from fungal particles in  
>> the soil.
>> Come through the lungs via respiration. Don't know a whole lot more  
>> about
>> others, but I suspect that moisture and poor hygiene would have a  
>> lot to do
>> with the hookworms. As we all know moisture is often the culprit in  
>> many
>> problematic situations, in this circle, one of the main causes of  
>> insect
>> infestations in straw bale walls - as often pointed out by the  
>> illustrious
>> Robbie Tom.
>> >
>> >
>> > Me ? Despite Beel's best efforts, I never really became a big fan  
>> of
>> earthen floors for my locale.
>>
>> God forbid, you would be the last guy I would try to convince on  
>> anything,
>> much less make a fan out of. Hah! But I will pay you a compliment in
>> saying that from all the lists that I've been a part of with you,  
>> I've learned a
>> whole hell of a lot. Initially I was trying to address the need for
>> concrete, but since he has widened the discussion below, I'll take  
>> the bait and
>> go with it. He's good at that.
>> >
>> > One :
>> >
>> > Earthen floors make a lot of sense in places the climate is such  
>> that
>> earth-coupling is a reasonable proposition. That is not the case in  
>> most, if
>> not all of Canada.
>> >
>> > In order to use an earthen floor in this climate, it would be  
>> necessary
>> to de-couple it from the earth with at least R-20 worth of insulation
>> (assuming that the floor is at or near grade)
>> >
>> > It would also be necessary to provide an effective strategy to  
>> prevent
>> soil-gas intrusion into the indoor air environment, something that  
>> is less
>> of a concern in climates where air-tight construction/super- 
>> insulation is
>> not essential.
>> >
>> > The above almost relegate earthen floors to being not much more  
>> than a
>> cosmetic veneer to provide a pastiche of "natural" earth- 
>> connectedness.
>>
>> I will take advantage of Robbie's comments to clarify a few things  
>> here,
>> certainly I would not try to argue with the guy.
>> Any floors that we've been involved with have been de-coupled from  
>> the
>> earth at least as far as I understand the concept and the term.
>> Typically we install a substrate that drains moisture/water away  
>> from the
>> floor, most often stone/gravel. No objection here to a poly liner  
>> if needed
>> or whatever.
>> Insulation we always use.
>> Soil-gas? Never had to deal with it, but I would assume that one  
>> would
>> incorporate the same measures that one would with a concrete slab.
>> So therefore we are talking about something more than a veneer.
>>
>> When it comes to earth coupled floors in the traditional sense, I  
>> have
>> more experience with them than the average person. I frequent a  
>> little adobe
>> home in northern Mexico where a couple in their 70s live. The house  
>> is
>> immaculate, the floors, by their choice, but by poverty is only  
>> lightly
>> compacted dirt that is maintained by sprinkling with water and  
>> sweeping. Perhaps a
>> little addition of dirt every now and then. It's a lovely  
>> experience, the
>> little bit of moisture on the floor creates fabulous ambiance  
>> during the hot
>> summer. And of course, this is a context specific application that  
>> would
>> be of little use in Ontario. I'm sure they don't have hookworms  
>> either. In
>> essence, what I want to say is that the variables are many in this  
>> case and
>> generalizing doesn't yield much in the way of useful information.
>> >
>> >
>> > Two:
>> > I was stunned by the volume of oil that Beel told me was needed to
>> adequately "condition" soil mixes to rendered them serviceable as  
>> finished
>> surfaces (by Auntie Septic's North American standards of  
>> performance). I
>> remember my Mom telling me that back in Olde China where human  
>> labour was cheap,
>> the floor guys simply pounded the $#!+ out of the earth to compact  
>> it and
>> called it a floor.
>>
>> Thinking back, I suspect that my comments may have been somewhat
>> exaggerated, most likely to irritate old Robbie. I've thought a  
>> great deal about the
>> oils and earthen floors these days and am re-thinking a lot of  
>> earlier
>> assumptions. Only thing I'm missing or lacking is a whole bunch of  
>> testing,
>> but at the moment I'm having much more fun in Mexico, that place  
>> where most
>> are terrified to go these days. However, I did coax Greg McMillan,  
>> one of
>> CA's original straw bale souls down there last month. But back to  
>> oils for
>> the moment. As for the amount, instead of progressively thinned  
>> application
>> of linseed oil, it may well be that one full strength coat may be  
>> sufficient
>> in most applications. Or a tad bit more. As for the type of oil,  
>> we've
>> never used or promoted chemical laden boiled linseed oil, I think  
>> we've beat
>> that discussion to death by now. However, some pretty loose testing  
>> on my
>> part suggests that almost any average grade cooking oil may be good  
>> enough
>> for a lot of applications. For now, we can avoid any discussion  
>> about the
>> downside of GMO modified corn oil. Let's just say there are options.
>>
>> As far as Robbie's mom and pounded floor, it's quite true, but  
>> there are
>> often subtle variations. The kind of floor he describes is common  
>> all over
>> the world. The one I described in Mexico is that way, but clearly  
>> not suited
>> for most modern houses. In Japan, such a floor is referred to as a
>> "Tataki" floor, which essentially means "pounded" The trick with  
>> making those
>> floors work however, is the addition of a small amount of lime and  
>> "nigari" or
>> "magnesium chloride" that is commonly a by-product of salt  
>> production and a
>> key ingredient in the making of tofu.
>> >
>> > I found Beel's revelation to be disturbing given the horror stories
>> about woodworkers' linseed-oil-soaked finishing rags spontaneously  
>> combusting
>> ... not to mention the potential for long-term pollution of  
>> interiors due to
>> the plentiful VOCs that such large volumes of oil would necessarily
>> generate. Again, not so much of an issue in warmer climes where  
>> high air change
>> rates would be okay.
>>
>> Again, I think like traditional earth floors, we've pounded this
>> sufficiently. We've always used raw linseed oil that we sun-thicken  
>> so it dries more
>> quickly. As far as I have been able to detect, msds sheets included,
>> conversations with producers, that oil contains no voc compounds.  
>> I'm certainly
>> open to the possibility that I've missed something in my  
>> investigations,
>> perhaps, but it's not obvious at first glance. I can tell you one  
>> thing,
>> boiled linseed oil has very offensive odors, raw linseed oil  
>> nothing I can
>> detect, doesn't smell much different than food-grade flaxseed oil  
>> in the health
>> food stores. Probably the significant difference between the two  
>> would be
>> whether or not the oil is organically produced and the method which  
>> is
>> used. I will admit that citrus thinner that we've used for a while  
>> has in
>> recent years become suspect and isn't always considered as  
>> desirable as once
>> thought. I will say though that in floors that we've been a part  
>> of, lingering
>> odors ha ve never been a problem.
>> >
>> > Three:
>> >
>> > Drying of the oil treatment. I've found that when treating  
>> timbers with
>> linseed oil, it is best done during the heat of summer with the  
>> timbers
>> outside in full sun and exposed to breezes. To do otherwise either  
>> results in
>> insufficient depth of penetration of oil (ie not enough oil applied  
>> to do
>> much good) ... or incomplete polymerisation of the oil resulting in a
>> surface that remains tacky and prone to bleeding for a long, long  
>> time ... and
>> over that period, being a magnet for air-borne crud and subsequent  
>> microbial
>> activity within the accumulated crud -- not the stuff of healthy  
>> interiors,
>> besides looking like hell.
>>
>> Agreed, that is why we've always recommend applying to the oil to  
>> floors
>> that are sufficiently warm and with oil that has been warmed.
>> >
>> > But one then wonders, why not forget about trying to make the  
>> earthen
>> floor a finished surface and thereby forego all of the sometimes- 
>> nasty
>> stabilisers and simply use the earthen floor as a substrate for a  
>> baked-hard
>> earthen mix (ie clay tile) or stone ?
>>
>> First of all we've always recommended earthen floor substrates for  
>> the
>> finished earthen floor surface that we are really discussing here.  
>> In our
>> efforts over the years, especially in Mexico we've tried just about  
>> everything
>> imaginable over earthen mix substrates. As I pointed out yesterday,
>> broken-up pieces of concrete slabs of various thicknesses we've  
>> used. Clay tiles,
>> we haven't but I know they'd work and have been used traditionally  
>> that way
>> forever. I live on baked clay tiles and love them. We've done very  
>> thin
>> concrete pours over well-compacted earth, have performed admirably  
>> without the
>> usual 3 inch or more thickness. We've made the equivalent of clay  
>> tiles
>> out of cement and sand - worked quite well. Stone when available.  
>> And just
>> for those playing around in Haiti and elsewhere, we've never done  
>> them in
>> low-cost housing for people of little resources mainly because we  
>> thought it
>> an inappropriate choice mostly due to durability issues.
>>
>> But perhaps the most significant thing I want to say other than to  
>> dispel
>> some of the myths above is that I'm certainly not taking the  
>> position of
>> promoting these kinds of floors. I think that there is a place for  
>> them and
>> for people who appreciate them for what they are. We can discuss the
>> technical aspects forever, but I think there is another side to  
>> this discussion
>> which is mostly intangible. There is a different quality to clay  
>> that makes
>> it distinct from concrete, plastics and the like. I'm not against  
>> concrete,
>> rather in favor of sensible use of it. Clay has a very different  
>> feel and
>> energy to it. Let me take one example to illustrate this. Recently  
>> we were
>> called to Ft Huachuca, the military base near us to consult on  
>> building some
>> adobe buildings. They wanted to do research on them and needed them
>> similar to those built in Afghanistan. The reason was that the  
>> technology they
>> had developed which allowed them to see through any kinds of walls -
>> concrete, cemen t stabilized earthen mixes, wood, what-have-you,  
>> could not see
>> through adobe or earthen walls. Now you can do what you want with  
>> that
>> observation, but it does point out a significant difference. Me?  
>> I'll take it down
>> the mystical road if you like.
>>
>> The other thought I leave you with is from my Native American
>> mother-in-law (architect mind you), who several years ago built an  
>> insulated adobe home
>> in northern New Mexico. After having grown-up on earth floors in  
>> Santa
>> Clara Pueblo and in a passive solar adobe in Santa Fe, she decided  
>> to go with
>> concrete in her new home. She loves the house, it's beautiful and  
>> tasteful,
>> written up in my blog, New Mexico magazine and Lloyd Kahn's new  
>> book "Tiny
>> Homes." There is one thing that she regrets with her new home and  
>> that is
>> the concrete floor. From her perspective (subjective mind you) is  
>> that the
>> concrete is much harder on her feet and legs and in general, more
>> uncomfortable. I realize this is a subjective area, but I would  
>> also argue that
>> there is a significant difference between the two.
>>
>> And that's way more than enough, for me, that's about a year's  
>> worth on
>> this list. Back to translating a Mexican cookbook.
>>
>> Bill Steen
>> _bill at caneloproject.com_ (mailto:bill at caneloproject.com)
>> www.caneloproject.com
>> www.caneloproject.com/blog
>> HC1 Box 324
>> Elgin, AZ85611
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
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