[GSBN] [SB-r-us] Re: earth floor odds and ends

Sat Jan 7 18:31:56 UTC 2012

 I second or third the Harry Francis nomination, and more than that, just want to say again how incredibly valuable I find this forum, the people on it, the depth and breadth of experience and intelligence, the humor, humility and willingness to share and (usually appropriately) tolerate differing views. It is just a great pleasure and honor to be part of such a global community. And, once again, big thanks to our host Bill Christensen (and Janine) for enabling this all to happen.

Desert David Eisenberg
... thinking back over these recent exchanges and so many past ones—and extremely grateful that I don't have to rely solely on my memory to retrieve wisdom from those past exchanges.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Steen <bill at caneloproject.com>
To: Global Straw Building Network <GSBN at sustainablesources.com>
Sent: Sat, Jan 7, 2012 9:46 am
Subject: Re: [GSBN] [SB-r-us] Re:  earth floor odds and ends

I'm forwarding this from the SB-R-us list these comments by Harry Francis, who, since we've been expanding the boundaries of this list, I would suggest for membership in that he is certainly one of the most knowledgeable people in this country (planet) when it comes to anything pertaining to lime.  So I guess I'm proposing him for membership.

Bill Steen
bill at caneloproject.com
www.caneloproject.com
www.caneloproject.com/blog
HC1 Box 324
Elgin, AZ85611

On Jan 7, 2012, at 9:00 AM, CALXA at aol.com wrote:

Hi Bill and the group, 

Just a few comments on clay floors....  

I would expect "properly treated" clay floors to be extremely well suited  
in areas where the clay content of the soil exceeds 10-12%. Then mixed with 
5%  or so hydrated lime, makes a wonderful compactable floor. The pH of the  
lime kills all bacteria, fungi and virus, and reacts with the silica ( 
clay) to  make a calcium silicate mass (cement). Now, treated with oil, there is 
a  chemical reaction called saponification (soap making), resulting in a 
water  insoluble grease,  which makes the floor water proof. (This is the same 
 chemical result that occurs if one has hard water, and when bathing, a 
ring  forms in the bathtub. This is the reaction between the oil on one's body 
and the  lime in the water). 

When adding lime to soils, if the clay content is not high enough, then the 
 cementing action does not occur... And, if adding too little lime, the 
clay  particles are agglomerated, creating soil particles that can be compacted 
 nicely, but are not water proofed. So, it is appropriate to determine the 
amount  of lime to be used. Also, the amount of lime needs to be sufficient 
to raise the  pH of the mixture to above 12 in order to control bacteria, 
virus and  fungi.

I suggest one could take a quart sample of the soil, and place in a tub of  
water. Then add hi-calcium hydrated lime to the mix, stirring, let settle,  
and then reading the pH of the water. Add just enough lime to raise the pH  
to 12+. (The silica in the Clay soil becomes chemically active above pH  
11).

Now, if the floor is in an area of high moisture, it may be possible to  
first placing a layer of treated soil, with oils mixed in, to make a water 
proof  lower level. Then add the remainder of lime treated soils, and compact.

Once compacted, but still moist, treat the surface with a fatty acid - oil, 
 forming a layer of Water insoluble soap ( grease)...(interesting, one 
makes  water insoluble yellow wheel bearing grease by adding oils to a lime 
water  solution, at warm temperatures---just like the bath tub ring is formed.).

Happy New Year to all...

Harry Francis

.

In a message dated 1/6/2012 12:23:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
bill at caneloproject.com writes:

On Jan 5, 2012, at 6:31 PM, RT wrote:

Actually he wrote a whole  lot of things that I will try to keep short. And 
given the nature of my  response to Rob Tom's comments, I'll change the 
thread to that of earth floor  generalities.
And thanks Bruce for waking us up. Just for clarity what I've  written is 
not in defense of earthen floors nor in the interest of promoting  them, but 
rather one of clearing up what I would consider to be  misconceptions.

The first of Rob's comments had to deal with soil borne  illnesses. Without 
research I suspect the list is long. In our part of the  world, one of the 
most common is Valley Fever that results from fungal  particles in the soil. 
Come through the lungs via respiration. Don't know a  whole lot more about 
others, but I suspect that moisture and poor hygiene  would have a lot to do 
with the hookworms. As we all know moisture is often  the culprit in many 
problematic situations, in this circle, one of the main  causes of insect 
infestations in straw bale walls - as often pointed out by  the illustrious 
Robbie Tom.
> 
> 
> Me ? Despite Beel's best  efforts, I never really became a big fan of 
earthen floors for my  locale.

God forbid, you would be the last guy I would try to convince  on anything, 
much less make a fan out of. Hah! But I will pay you a compliment  in 
saying that from all the lists that I've been a part of with you, I've  learned a 
whole hell of a lot. Initially I was trying to address the need for  
concrete, but since he has widened the discussion below, I'll take the bait  and 
go with it. He's good at that.
> 
> One :
> 
>  Earthen floors make a lot of sense in places the climate is such that  
earth-coupling is a reasonable proposition. That is not the case in most, if  
not all of Canada.
> 
> In order to use an earthen floor in this  climate, it would be necessary 
to de-couple it from the earth with at least  R-20 worth of insulation 
(assuming that the floor is at or near grade)
>  
> It would also be necessary to provide an effective strategy to  prevent 
soil-gas intrusion into the indoor air environment, something that is  less 
of a concern in climates where air-tight construction/super-insulation is  
not essential.
> 
> The above almost relegate earthen floors to  being not much more than a 
cosmetic veneer to provide a pastiche of "natural"  earth-connectedness.

I will take advantage of Robbie's comments to  clarify a few things here, 
certainly I would not try to argue with the  guy.
Any floors that we've been involved with have been de-coupled from the  
earth at least as far as I understand the concept and the term.
Typically  we install a substrate that drains moisture/water away from the 
floor, most  often stone/gravel. No objection here to a poly liner if needed 
or  whatever.
Insulation we always use.
Soil-gas? Never had to deal with it,  but I would assume that one would 
incorporate the same measures that one would  with a concrete slab.
So therefore we are talking about something more than  a veneer.

When it comes to earth coupled floors in the traditional  sense, I have 
more experience with them than the average person. I frequent a  little adobe 
home in northern Mexico where a couple in their 70s live. The  house is 
immaculate, the floors, by their choice, but by poverty is only  lightly 
compacted dirt that is maintained by sprinkling with water and  sweeping. Perhaps a 
little addition of dirt every now and then. It's a lovely  experience, the 
little bit of moisture on the floor creates fabulous ambiance  during the hot 
summer. And of course, this is a context specific application  that would 
be of little use in Ontario. I'm sure they don't have hookworms  either. In 
essence, what I want to say is that the variables are many in this  case and 
generalizing doesn't yield much in the way of useful  information.
> 
> 
> Two:
> I was stunned by the  volume of oil that Beel told me was needed to 
adequately "condition" soil  mixes to rendered them serviceable as finished 
surfaces (by Auntie Septic's  North American standards of performance). I 
remember my Mom telling me that  back in Olde China where human labour was cheap, 
the floor guys simply pounded  the $#!+ out of the earth to compact it and 
called it a floor.

Thinking  back, I suspect that my comments may have been somewhat 
exaggerated, most  likely to irritate old Robbie. I've thought a great deal about the 
oils and  earthen floors these days and am re-thinking a lot of earlier 
assumptions.  Only thing I'm missing or lacking is a whole bunch of testing, 
but at the  moment I'm having much more fun in Mexico, that place where most 
are terrified  to go these days. However, I did coax Greg McMillan, one of 
CA's original  straw bale souls down there last month. But back to oils for 
the moment. As  for the amount, instead of progressively thinned application 
of linseed oil,  it may well be that one full strength coat may be sufficient 
in most  applications. Or a tad bit more. As for the type of oil, we've 
never used or  promoted chemical laden boiled linseed oil, I think we've beat 
that discussion  to death by now. However, some pretty loose testing on my 
part suggests that  almost any average grade cooking oil may be good enough 
for a lot of  applications. For now, we can avoid any discussion about the 
downside of GMO  modified corn oil. Let's just say there are options.

As far as Robbie's  mom and pounded floor, it's quite true, but there are 
often subtle variations.  The kind of floor he describes is common all over 
the world. The one I  described in Mexico is that way, but clearly not suited 
for most modern  houses. In Japan, such a floor is referred to as a 
"Tataki" floor, which  essentially means "pounded" The trick with making those 
floors work however,  is the addition of a small amount of lime and "nigari" or 
"magnesium chloride"  that is commonly a by-product of salt production and a 
key ingredient in the  making of tofu.
> 
> I found Beel's revelation to be disturbing  given the horror stories 
about woodworkers' linseed-oil-soaked finishing rags  spontaneously combusting 
... not to mention the potential for long-term  pollution of interiors due to 
the plentiful VOCs that such large volumes of  oil would necessarily 
generate. Again, not so much of an issue in warmer  climes where high air change 
rates would be okay.

Again, I think like  traditional earth floors, we've pounded this 
sufficiently. We've always used  raw linseed oil that we sun-thicken so it dries more 
quickly. As far as I have  been able to detect, msds sheets included, 
conversations with producers, that  oil contains no voc compounds. I'm certainly 
open to the possibility that I've  missed something in my investigations, 
perhaps, but it's not obvious at first  glance. I can tell you one thing, 
boiled linseed oil has very offensive odors,  raw linseed oil nothing I can 
detect, doesn't smell much different than  food-grade flaxseed oil in the health 
food stores. Probably the significant  difference between the two would be 
whether or not the oil is organically  produced and the method which is 
used. I will admit that citrus thinner that  we've used for a while has in 
recent years become suspect and isn't always  considered as desirable as once 
thought. I will say though that in floors that  we've been a part of, lingering 
odors ha ve never been a problem.
>  
> Three:
> 
> Drying of the oil treatment. I've found that  when treating timbers with 
linseed oil, it is best done during the heat of  summer with the timbers 
outside in full sun and exposed to breezes. To do  otherwise either results in 
insufficient depth of penetration of oil (ie not  enough oil applied to do 
much good) ... or incomplete polymerisation of the  oil resulting in a 
surface that remains tacky and prone to bleeding for a  long, long time ... and 
over that period, being a magnet for air-borne crud  and subsequent microbial 
activity within the accumulated crud -- not the stuff  of healthy interiors, 
besides looking like hell.

Agreed, that is why  we've always recommend applying to the oil to floors 
that are sufficiently  warm and with oil that has been warmed.
> 
> But one then wonders,  why not forget about trying to make the earthen 
floor a finished surface and  thereby forego all of the sometimes-nasty 
stabilisers and simply use the  earthen floor as a substrate for a baked-hard 
earthen mix (ie clay tile) or  stone ?

First of all we've always recommended earthen floor substrates  for the 
finished earthen floor surface that we are really discussing here. In  our 
efforts over the years, especially in Mexico we've tried just about  everything 
imaginable over earthen mix substrates. As I pointed out yesterday,  
broken-up pieces of concrete slabs of various thicknesses we've used. Clay  tiles, 
we haven't but I know they'd work and have been used traditionally that  way 
forever. I live on baked clay tiles and love them. We've done very thin  
concrete pours over well-compacted earth, have performed admirably without the 
 usual 3 inch or more thickness. We've made the equivalent of clay tiles 
out of  cement and sand - worked quite well. Stone when available. And just 
for those  playing around in Haiti and elsewhere, we've never done them in 
low-cost  housing for people of little resources mainly because we thought it 
an  inappropriate choice mostly due to durability issues.

But perhaps the  most significant thing I want to say other than to dispel 
some of the myths  above is that I'm certainly not taking the position of 
promoting these kinds  of floors. I think that there is a place for them and 
for people who  appreciate them for what they are. We can discuss the 
technical aspects  forever, but I think there is another side to this discussion 
which is mostly  intangible. There is a different quality to clay that makes 
it distinct from  concrete, plastics and the like. I'm not against concrete, 
rather in favor of  sensible use of it. Clay has a very different feel and 
energy to it. Let me  take one example to illustrate this. Recently we were 
called to Ft Huachuca,  the military base near us to consult on building some 
adobe buildings. They  wanted to do research on them and needed them 
similar to those built in  Afghanistan. The reason was that the technology they 
had developed which  allowed them to see through any kinds of walls - 
concrete, cemen t stabilized  earthen mixes, wood, what-have-you, could not see 
through adobe or earthen  walls. Now you can do what you want with that 
observation, but it does point  out a significant difference. Me? I'll take it down 
the mystical road if you  like.

The other thought I leave you with is from my Native American  
mother-in-law (architect mind you), who several years ago built an insulated  adobe home 
in northern New Mexico. After having grown-up on earth floors in  Santa 
Clara Pueblo and in a passive solar adobe in Santa Fe, she decided to go  with 
concrete in her new home. She loves the house, it's beautiful and  tasteful, 
written up in my blog, New Mexico magazine and Lloyd Kahn's new book  "Tiny 
Homes." There is one thing that she regrets with her new home and that  is 
the concrete floor. From her perspective (subjective mind you) is that the  
concrete is much harder on her feet and legs and in general, more  
uncomfortable. I realize this is a subjective area, but I would also argue  that 
there is a significant difference between the two. 

And that's way  more than enough, for me, that's about a year's worth on 
this list. Back to  translating a Mexican cookbook.

Bill Steen
_bill at caneloproject.com_ (mailto:bill at caneloproject.com) 
www.caneloproject.com
www.caneloproject.com/blog
HC1  Box 324
Elgin, AZ85611

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