<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><br></div>Second the motion to include Harry Francis!<div><br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Thanks,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Bruce King</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><a href="mailto:bruce@bruce-king.com">bruce@bruce-king.com</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">(415) 987-7271</div></span></div></span></div></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Twitter: @brucekinggreen</div></span></div></span></div></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">blog: bruceking.posterous.com</div></span></div></span></div></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; ">Skype: brucekingokok</span></div></span> </div><br><div><div>On Jan 7, 2012, at 8:41 AM, Bill Steen wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I'm forwarding this from the SB-R-us list these comments by Harry Francis, who, since we've been expanding the boundaries of this list, I would suggest for membership in that he is certainly one of the most knowledgeable people in this country (planet) when it comes to anything pertaining to lime. So I guess I'm proposing him for membership.<div><br></div><div><br><div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Bill Steen</div><div><a href="mailto:bill@caneloproject.com">bill@caneloproject.com</a></div><div><a href="http://www.caneloproject.com">www.caneloproject.com</a></div><div><a href="http://www.caneloproject.com/blog">www.caneloproject.com/blog</a></div><div>HC1 Box 324</div><div>Elgin, AZ85611</div><div><br></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div> <br><div><div>On Jan 7, 2012, at 9:00 AM, <a href="mailto:CALXA@aol.com">CALXA@aol.com</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"> <div style="background-color: #fff;"> <span style="display:none"> </span> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;"> <div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;"> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~--> <div id="ygrp-text"><p>Hi Bill and the group, <br> <br> Just a few comments on clay floors.... <br> <br> <br> I would expect "properly treated" clay floors to be extremely well suited <br> in areas where the clay content of the soil exceeds 10-12%. Then mixed with <br> 5% or so hydrated lime, makes a wonderful compactable floor. The pH of the <br> lime kills all bacteria, fungi and virus, and reacts with the silica ( <br> clay) to make a calcium silicate mass (cement). Now, treated with oil, there is <br> a chemical reaction called saponification (soap making), resulting in a <br> water insoluble grease, which makes the floor water proof. (This is the same <br> chemical result that occurs if one has hard water, and when bathing, a <br> ring forms in the bathtub. This is the reaction between the oil on one's body <br> and the lime in the water). <br> <br> When adding lime to soils, if the clay content is not high enough, then the <br> cementing action does not occur... And, if adding too little lime, the <br> clay particles are agglomerated, creating soil particles that can be compacted <br> nicely, but are not water proofed. So, it is appropriate to determine the <br> amount of lime to be used. Also, the amount of lime needs to be sufficient <br> to raise the pH of the mixture to above 12 in order to control bacteria, <br> virus and fungi.<br> <br> I suggest one could take a quart sample of the soil, and place in a tub of <br> water. Then add hi-calcium hydrated lime to the mix, stirring, let settle, <br> and then reading the pH of the water. Add just enough lime to raise the pH <br> to 12+. (The silica in the Clay soil becomes chemically active above pH <br> 11).<br> <br> Now, if the floor is in an area of high moisture, it may be possible to <br> first placing a layer of treated soil, with oils mixed in, to make a water <br> proof lower level. Then add the remainder of lime treated soils, and compact.<br> <br> Once compacted, but still moist, treat the surface with a fatty acid - oil, <br> forming a layer of Water insoluble soap ( grease)...(interesting, one <br> makes water insoluble yellow wheel bearing grease by adding oils to a lime <br> water solution, at warm temperatures---just like the bath tub ring is formed.).<br> <br> Happy New Year to all...<br> <br> <br> Harry Francis<br> <br> .<br> <br> In a message dated 1/6/2012 12:23:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, <br> <a href="mailto:bill%40caneloproject.com">bill@caneloproject.com</a> writes:<br> <br> On Jan 5, 2012, at 6:31 PM, RT wrote:<br> <br> Actually he wrote a whole lot of things that I will try to keep short. And <br> given the nature of my response to Rob Tom's comments, I'll change the <br> thread to that of earth floor generalities.<br> And thanks Bruce for waking us up. Just for clarity what I've written is <br> not in defense of earthen floors nor in the interest of promoting them, but <br> rather one of clearing up what I would consider to be misconceptions.<br> <br> The first of Rob's comments had to deal with soil borne illnesses. Without <br> research I suspect the list is long. In our part of the world, one of the <br> most common is Valley Fever that results from fungal particles in the soil. <br> Come through the lungs via respiration. Don't know a whole lot more about <br> others, but I suspect that moisture and poor hygiene would have a lot to do <br> with the hookworms. As we all know moisture is often the culprit in many <br> problematic situations, in this circle, one of the main causes of insect <br> infestations in straw bale walls - as often pointed out by the illustrious <br> Robbie Tom.<br> > <br> > <br> > Me ? Despite Beel's best efforts, I never really became a big fan of <br> earthen floors for my locale.<br> <br> God forbid, you would be the last guy I would try to convince on anything, <br> much less make a fan out of. Hah! But I will pay you a compliment in <br> saying that from all the lists that I've been a part of with you, I've learned a <br> whole hell of a lot. Initially I was trying to address the need for <br> concrete, but since he has widened the discussion below, I'll take the bait and <br> go with it. He's good at that.<br> > <br> > One :<br> > <br> > Earthen floors make a lot of sense in places the climate is such that <br> earth-coupling is a reasonable proposition. That is not the case in most, if <br> not all of Canada.<br> > <br> > In order to use an earthen floor in this climate, it would be necessary <br> to de-couple it from the earth with at least R-20 worth of insulation <br> (assuming that the floor is at or near grade)<br> > <br> > It would also be necessary to provide an effective strategy to prevent <br> soil-gas intrusion into the indoor air environment, something that is less <br> of a concern in climates where air-tight construction/super-insulation is <br> not essential.<br> > <br> > The above almost relegate earthen floors to being not much more than a <br> cosmetic veneer to provide a pastiche of "natural" earth-connectedness.<br> <br> I will take advantage of Robbie's comments to clarify a few things here, <br> certainly I would not try to argue with the guy.<br> Any floors that we've been involved with have been de-coupled from the <br> earth at least as far as I understand the concept and the term.<br> Typically we install a substrate that drains moisture/water away from the <br> floor, most often stone/gravel. No objection here to a poly liner if needed <br> or whatever.<br> Insulation we always use.<br> Soil-gas? Never had to deal with it, but I would assume that one would <br> incorporate the same measures that one would with a concrete slab.<br> So therefore we are talking about something more than a veneer.<br> <br> When it comes to earth coupled floors in the traditional sense, I have <br> more experience with them than the average person. I frequent a little adobe <br> home in northern Mexico where a couple in their 70s live. The house is <br> immaculate, the floors, by their choice, but by poverty is only lightly <br> compacted dirt that is maintained by sprinkling with water and sweeping. Perhaps a <br> little addition of dirt every now and then. It's a lovely experience, the <br> little bit of moisture on the floor creates fabulous ambiance during the hot <br> summer. And of course, this is a context specific application that would <br> be of little use in Ontario. I'm sure they don't have hookworms either. In <br> essence, what I want to say is that the variables are many in this case and <br> generalizing doesn't yield much in the way of useful information.<br> > <br> > <br> > Two:<br> > I was stunned by the volume of oil that Beel told me was needed to <br> adequately "condition" soil mixes to rendered them serviceable as finished <br> surfaces (by Auntie Septic's North American standards of performance). I <br> remember my Mom telling me that back in Olde China where human labour was cheap, <br> the floor guys simply pounded the $#!+ out of the earth to compact it and <br> called it a floor.<br> <br> Thinking back, I suspect that my comments may have been somewhat <br> exaggerated, most likely to irritate old Robbie. I've thought a great deal about the <br> oils and earthen floors these days and am re-thinking a lot of earlier <br> assumptions. Only thing I'm missing or lacking is a whole bunch of testing, <br> but at the moment I'm having much more fun in Mexico, that place where most <br> are terrified to go these days. However, I did coax Greg McMillan, one of <br> CA's original straw bale souls down there last month. But back to oils for <br> the moment. As for the amount, instead of progressively thinned application <br> of linseed oil, it may well be that one full strength coat may be sufficient <br> in most applications. Or a tad bit more. As for the type of oil, we've <br> never used or promoted chemical laden boiled linseed oil, I think we've beat <br> that discussion to death by now. However, some pretty loose testing on my <br> part suggests that almost any average grade cooking oil may be good enough <br> for a lot of applications. For now, we can avoid any discussion about the <br> downside of GMO modified corn oil. Let's just say there are options.<br> <br> As far as Robbie's mom and pounded floor, it's quite true, but there are <br> often subtle variations. The kind of floor he describes is common all over <br> the world. The one I described in Mexico is that way, but clearly not suited <br> for most modern houses. In Japan, such a floor is referred to as a <br> "Tataki" floor, which essentially means "pounded" The trick with making those <br> floors work however, is the addition of a small amount of lime and "nigari" or <br> "magnesium chloride" that is commonly a by-product of salt production and a <br> key ingredient in the making of tofu.<br> > <br> > I found Beel's revelation to be disturbing given the horror stories <br> about woodworkers' linseed-oil-soaked finishing rags spontaneously combusting <br> ... not to mention the potential for long-term pollution of interiors due to <br> the plentiful VOCs that such large volumes of oil would necessarily <br> generate. Again, not so much of an issue in warmer climes where high air change <br> rates would be okay.<br> <br> Again, I think like traditional earth floors, we've pounded this <br> sufficiently. We've always used raw linseed oil that we sun-thicken so it dries more <br> quickly. As far as I have been able to detect, msds sheets included, <br> conversations with producers, that oil contains no voc compounds. I'm certainly <br> open to the possibility that I've missed something in my investigations, <br> perhaps, but it's not obvious at first glance. I can tell you one thing, <br> boiled linseed oil has very offensive odors, raw linseed oil nothing I can <br> detect, doesn't smell much different than food-grade flaxseed oil in the health <br> food stores. Probably the significant difference between the two would be <br> whether or not the oil is organically produced and the method which is <br> used. I will admit that citrus thinner that we've used for a while has in <br> recent years become suspect and isn't always considered as desirable as once <br> thought. I will say though that in floors that we've been a part of, lingering <br> odors ha ve never been a problem.<br> > <br> > Three:<br> > <br> > Drying of the oil treatment. I've found that when treating timbers with <br> linseed oil, it is best done during the heat of summer with the timbers <br> outside in full sun and exposed to breezes. To do otherwise either results in <br> insufficient depth of penetration of oil (ie not enough oil applied to do <br> much good) ... or incomplete polymerisation of the oil resulting in a <br> surface that remains tacky and prone to bleeding for a long, long time ... and <br> over that period, being a magnet for air-borne crud and subsequent microbial <br> activity within the accumulated crud -- not the stuff of healthy interiors, <br> besides looking like hell.<br> <br> Agreed, that is why we've always recommend applying to the oil to floors <br> that are sufficiently warm and with oil that has been warmed.<br> > <br> > But one then wonders, why not forget about trying to make the earthen <br> floor a finished surface and thereby forego all of the sometimes-nasty <br> stabilisers and simply use the earthen floor as a substrate for a baked-hard <br> earthen mix (ie clay tile) or stone ?<br> <br> First of all we've always recommended earthen floor substrates for the <br> finished earthen floor surface that we are really discussing here. In our <br> efforts over the years, especially in Mexico we've tried just about everything <br> imaginable over earthen mix substrates. As I pointed out yesterday, <br> broken-up pieces of concrete slabs of various thicknesses we've used. Clay tiles, <br> we haven't but I know they'd work and have been used traditionally that way <br> forever. I live on baked clay tiles and love them. We've done very thin <br> concrete pours over well-compacted earth, have performed admirably without the <br> usual 3 inch or more thickness. We've made the equivalent of clay tiles <br> out of cement and sand - worked quite well. Stone when available. And just <br> for those playing around in Haiti and elsewhere, we've never done them in <br> low-cost housing for people of little resources mainly because we thought it <br> an inappropriate choice mostly due to durability issues.<br> <br> But perhaps the most significant thing I want to say other than to dispel <br> some of the myths above is that I'm certainly not taking the position of <br> promoting these kinds of floors. I think that there is a place for them and <br> for people who appreciate them for what they are. We can discuss the <br> technical aspects forever, but I think there is another side to this discussion <br> which is mostly intangible. There is a different quality to clay that makes <br> it distinct from concrete, plastics and the like. I'm not against concrete, <br> rather in favor of sensible use of it. Clay has a very different feel and <br> energy to it. Let me take one example to illustrate this. Recently we were <br> called to Ft Huachuca, the military base near us to consult on building some <br> adobe buildings. They wanted to do research on them and needed them <br> similar to those built in Afghanistan. The reason was that the technology they <br> had developed which allowed them to see through any kinds of walls - <br> concrete, cemen t stabilized earthen mixes, wood, what-have-you, could not see <br> through adobe or earthen walls. Now you can do what you want with that <br> observation, but it does point out a significant difference. Me? I'll take it down <br> the mystical road if you like.<br> <br> The other thought I leave you with is from my Native American <br> mother-in-law (architect mind you), who several years ago built an insulated adobe home <br> in northern New Mexico. After having grown-up on earth floors in Santa <br> Clara Pueblo and in a passive solar adobe in Santa Fe, she decided to go with <br> concrete in her new home. She loves the house, it's beautiful and tasteful, <br> written up in my blog, New Mexico magazine and Lloyd Kahn's new book "Tiny <br> Homes." There is one thing that she regrets with her new home and that is <br> the concrete floor. From her perspective (subjective mind you) is that the <br> concrete is much harder on her feet and legs and in general, more <br> uncomfortable. I realize this is a subjective area, but I would also argue that <br> there is a significant difference between the two. <br> <br> And that's way more than enough, for me, that's about a year's worth on <br> this list. Back to translating a Mexican cookbook.<br> <br> Bill Steen<br> <a href="mailto:_bill%40caneloproject.com">_bill@caneloproject.com</a>_ (mailto:<a href="mailto:bill%40caneloproject.com">bill@caneloproject.com</a>) <br> <a href="http://www.caneloproject.com">www.caneloproject.com</a><br> <a href="http://www.caneloproject.com/blog">www.caneloproject.com/blog</a><br> HC1 Box 324<br> Elgin, AZ85611<br> <br> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> <br> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br> <br> </p> </div> <!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~--> <div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div> <div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;"> <div> <a href="mailto:CALXA@aol.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BSB-r-us%5D%20Re%3A%20%5BGSBN%5D%20earth%20floor%20odds%20and%20ends" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> | <a href="mailto:SB-r-us@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5BSB-r-us%5D%20Re%3A%20%5BGSBN%5D%20earth%20floor%20odds%20and%20ends"> Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SB-r-us/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMTg2MDAyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzg5NTUzNDEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTY1NzQxBG1zZ0lkAzE1OTEwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyNTk1MjAxOQ--?act=reply&messageNum=15910">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> | <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SB-r-us/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbHBmM2UxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzg5NTUzNDEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTY1NzQxBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNTk1MjAxOQ--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a> </div> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SB-r-us/message/15902;_ylc=X3oDMTM2YjRnY25xBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzg5NTUzNDEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTY1NzQxBG1zZ0lkAzE1OTEwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyNTk1MjAxOQR0cGNJZAMxNTkwMg--">Messages in this topic</a> (<span style="font-weight: 700;">8</span>) </div> <!------- Start Nav Bar ------> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| --> <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| --> <div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;"> <span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span> <ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;"> <li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;"> <span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SB-r-us/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmMmFpY2YwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzg5NTUzNDEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTY1NzQxBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMjU5NTIwMTk-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span> <span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">1</span> </li> </ul> <div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;"> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SB-r-us;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYXZ2MGUxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzg5NTUzNDEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MTY1NzQxBHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyNTk1MjAxOQ--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a> </div> </div> <div id="ygrp-mkp" style="border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; clear: both; float: left; font-family: Arial; margin: 5px 0 10px 0; padding: 0 10px;"> <div id="hd" style="color: #628c2a; font-size: 85%; font-weight: 700; line-height: 122%; margin: 10px 0;">MARKETPLACE</div> <div id="ads" style="margin-bottom: 10px;"> <div class="ad" style="color: #628C2A; font-family: Arial; font-weight: 700; padding: 0 0;"><p><a href="http://global.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=15om11060/M=493064.14543979.14562481.13298430/D=groups/S=1705165741:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1325959219/L=b2ddd04e-3948-11e1-acf5-6f96caa343a6/B=YcSjMdBDRss-/J=1325952019891532/K=TM2K3B67eUko85XYtZWqSQ/A=6060255/R=0/SIG=1194m4keh/*http://us.toolbar.yahoo.com/?.cpdl=grpj">Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! 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