[GSBN] Modeling or measuring mass effect of interior plaster
John Swearingen
jswearingen at skillful-means.com
Wed May 8 05:14:44 UTC 2013
Oh, we figured you'd get back sometime, Laura.
Interesting about the cooling tower. We have designed a house for a couple
whose neighbor has a large, wet, cooling tower. They originally thought
that was the way to go, but I insisted that it wasn't necessary. We're
building the house as their funds permit, and bales and plaster will go in
this summer. I hope our design with clerestories and mass will perform
well. Is your cooling tower wet?
To achieve that kind of consistent cool summer temperatures, 63-65 F, I
would think that you really need to expose the plaster in order to store as
much coolth as you can, but you know the climate better than we do.
Perhaps a wood wall section here and there will be enough to satisfy their
need for wood.
E-10 probably hasn't changed much. I've found that the modulation of the
distributed mass is generally under-valued, which I think is because in
houses that rely a lot on passive means (solar gain, open plans,
clerestories, etc.), convection becomes a significant player in exchanging
heat with the mass. To account for that I've sometimes thrown in some
thick plaster interior walls which serve to increase the surface area of
mass, and by extension the heat transfer rate.
I do a lot of back and forth looking between a free-running model (with no
mechanical input), a night-venting model, and different scenarios of
heating systems and settings. The idea is to just tinker and observe how
the building behaves as elements are changed. E-10 does this pretty
easily; the object is to become familiar with the dynamics of the building
and develop an intuitive understanding--ie: this seems right or this seems
off. For instance, I might run it with different rates of night venting in
order to understand the how that works in that particular climate and for
different seasons. I model for transitional months, in particular, because
those are the times when tweaking the design might have greater rewards in
achieving comfort without energy inputs, and because those months can tell
you a lot about where your margins and limits are in passive performance.
The biggest problem is that with a well-designed house the changes you can
make in performance are pretty small and subtle, so you have to pay close
attention and see what directions to go in to optimize the building. In
general, with a good SB house, it becomes all about the glazing--the walls
are hardly a factor except for the interior plaster. You probably know all
that, but perhaps this is a refresher....
John "Similarly Simulated" Swearingen
On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 9:25 PM, Laura Bartels <laura at greenweaver.com> wrote:
> You all are amazing. And I'm probably just sneaking under the wire of
> being in the virtual straw bale dog house- throw out a question and then be
> buried in meetings for two days while others engage in this great dialogue
> :). If Bill had the softstrawware to build that dog house, I might just be
> in it.
>
> My personal experience agrees with John's comments about the plaster
> modulating diurnal swings very well (and more than longer term temp
> swings)- I even had the chance to live in my first home at 8,200' elevation
> unplastered then later plastered through pretty harsh winter. The larger
> diurnal temperature swings before plaster certainly was affected by some
> increased air leakage, but my gut said it was the addition of mass that
> made such a difference, something on the order of 20 degree swings before
> to 5 degrees after if my memory from 18 years ago is any good.
>
> To be more specific than my first email, this project is in mild mountain
> climate at 5900 feet elevation, with annual maximum average temp of 59F,
> minimum of 23 F, annual heating degree days (Tot Degrees >65) of 8,749
> annual cooling degree days of 62. So, while not the "cold European
> climate", it's also not the Melbourne climate.
>
> The scale of the project suggest that we will see a higher floor area to
> wall area ratio as Derek mentions, but given the layout, we will definitely
> have a smaller percentage of direct gain.
>
> Given that the client has expressed a strong desire for cool indoor summer
> temperatures (63-65 F), a cooling tower has been included. However, it
> seems that even with extensive modeling, we might come back to Derek's
> comment that "To the extent that covering the walls with barn wood will
> diminish the effective thermal mass, as Laura describes, it could have a
> significant impact on comfort in the summer," which would be an unfortunate
> loss of performance. While the High Mass example in Bohdan's great article
> doesn't achieve summer low temps in this range, it would be interesting to
> add cooling tower use in that model to see if that brings it down in those
> climates.
>
> John, I used to use Energy 10 and was trained in that years ago, but given
> that it's no longer part of my experience, is there anything you can speak
> to in modeling mass with the current version?
>
> And David A., I've always loved what this study tells us about lag time in
> a sb wall. Thanks for writing it, and for re-sharing this. I had not
> remembered the recognition of sb heat capacity in the paper. What's
> intriguing is the comment about choosing thicknesses of plaster and straw
> to play with lag time.
>
> I have more on my mind, but having had a very long day, will use this as
> my catch up on this great thread, and to stay out of that dog house Bill
> might be planning.
>
> Laura
>
>
> *
> Laura Bartels
> GreenWeaver Inc.
> 520 S. Third St., Suite 5
> Carbondale, CO 81623
> 970-379-6779
> www.greenweaverinc.com
>
> *
>
>
> On May 7, 2013, at 7:25 PM, John Swearingen wrote:
>
> At some point, adding more thermal mass will have little effect, because
>> of the low temperature swing and the resulting low delta T across the
>> thermal mass. After this point, adding more thermal mass wouldn't help
>> much, but I'm not seeing how it would have a negative effect, either.
>> Unless the residents found consistent temperatures monotonous.
>
>
> We've recently completed a pretty high mass house. Strawbale with
> lime/cement plaster, and an Air Floor <http://www.airfloor.com/> system
> which consists of 6" of tunnels sitting on a 4" slab and drenched in
> concrete with a 2" topping slab. Conditioned air is sent first through the
> floor, where it drops a large portion, about 2/3, of its heat into the
> slab, which becomes a radiant heater/cooler, and the rest is blown into the
> room. The building temperature is remarkably stable. We took measurements
> this winter when the temperature went from a maximum 58F to about 30F at
> night. The owners turned off the heating system at 9-10pm when the bedroom
> was 68F. In the morning it had dropped only one degree, even though the
> room has an abundance of glazing: French doors and a large window seat.
>
> The high mass floor system has one complication, noted last fall: the
> system is slow to respond in the short term. The owners have not shaded
> their glazing, so when rooms get a lot of direct gain, the HVAC system does
> not immediately cool the room, as a conventional system would do. However,
> the rooms also don't get very hot, because the mass absorbs the solar
> gain--and we're only talking about a 3-4 F rise.
>
> John "Hot Air" Swearingen
>
>
> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:23 PM, Derek Stearns Roff <derek at unm.edu> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for posting the article on thermal mass, Bohdan. I found it very
>> interesting. Based on the data it contains, I have a few comments relevant
>> to Laura's situation.
>>
>> As John mentioned, the article emphasizes that it is addressing thermal
>> mass with direct solar exposure/gain. However, I didn't see anything
>> quantifying what amount of time the sun needs to shine on each bit of
>> thermal mass floor and wall each day, in order to attain the listed
>> results. As the sun moves across the sky, some parts of the floor and
>> walls will receive direct sunlight for only a few minutes, while other
>> locations will be in the sun for several hours per day. The amount of
>> furniture, area rugs, and wall decorations will also affect how much sun
>> shines on thermal mass. I'm thinking that as the amount of time in the sun
>> decreases, the needed surface area of the thermal mass needs to increase,
>> to get the same thermal mass effect. The total mass of the thermal mass
>> might need to increase a bit, too.
>>
>> At 6000 sq ft/560m3, Laŭra's project will likely have a higher floor
>> area to wall area ratio than smaller houses. By itself, this might
>> decrease the importance of the thermal mass in the walls. However,
>> depending on the number of stories and the floor plan, a large project
>> might have a smaller percentage of floor and wall area accessible to direct
>> sun. That would increase the importance of maximizing the surface area of
>> the thermal mass.
>>
>> Laura didn't say where this project will be built, but I'm guessing it
>> might have a climate closer to the "cold European climate" listed in the
>> article, rather than to the alternative Melbourne figures. The article
>> quotes Vale and Vale as suggesting 1,200kg of thermal mass for each square
>> meter of floor area. It's worth noting that all this thermal mass could
>> not be in the floor. If it were, the thermal mass floor would need to be
>> about .5m/20" thick. Not only is that absurd from a construction
>> perspective, but much of the mass in a slab that thick would not respond to
>> daily temperature variation. My reading is that walls have to be involved
>> in the thermal mass equation, to get the results described.
>>
>> At the top right of page 7, the article says that temperature modeling
>> for the three reference building variations (low-mass, medium-mass, and
>> high-mass) are predicted to have similar maximum temperatures. However,
>> the numbers in the chart paint a different picture, as I see it. Table 3
>> shows the maximum temperature at the hottest part of the summer as 32
>> degrees C/90 degrees F for the low mass house, contrasted with 25 C/77 F
>> for the high-mass house. To me, that's the difference between the average
>> American demanding air conditioning (or feeling that they are suffering),
>> versus a temperature that many would find acceptable. 23 C/77 F is pretty
>> comfortable, when the radiant surfaces (ceiling, walls and floors) are at a
>> similar temperature or lower, as they would be in a well-insulated home.
>> That temperature can feel uncomfortable, if the radiant surfaces have
>> heated up to 30 C/86 F or more.
>>
>> Table 3 also shows surprising figures for the morning lows in the
>> hottest month. The low-mass building is predicted to be at 16 C/61 F on a
>> summer morning. Some residents would be turning on the heat in the
>> morning, and the air conditioning in the afternoon. The high-mass building
>> will get down to a comfortable 20 C/68 F on the same summer morning. To
>> the extent that covering the walls with barn wood will diminish the
>> effective thermal mass, as Laura describes, it could have a significant
>> impact on comfort in the summer. The winter figures indicate substantially
>> greater differences between high-mass and low-mass temperature variations.
>> I also conclude that Hobart has a pretty pleasant temperature range.
>>
>> I agree with David, that uninsulated thermal mass can easily be a
>> liability. I'm not sure the same is true for well-insulated thermal mass.
>> A large amount of thermal mass combined with a well-insulated building
>> envelope will result in small daily temperature variations. At some point,
>> adding more thermal mass will have little effect, because of the low
>> temperature swing and the resulting low delta T across the thermal mass.
>> After this point, adding more thermal mass wouldn't help much, but I'm not
>> seeing how it would have a negative effect, either. Unless the residents
>> found consistent temperatures monotonous.
>>
>> Derek
>>
>> On May 6, 2013, at 7:05 PM, Bohdan Dorniak wrote:
>>
>> Hi All****
>> This is a note that has been published by the Australian Institute of
>> Architects regarding Thermal Mass.****
>> I thought that you may find this interesting? Any comments John??
>> Laura??****
>> Regards****
>> Bohdan Dorniak****
>> ** **
>> *From:* GSBN-bounces at sustainablesources.com [mailto:
>> GSBN-bounces at sustainablesources.com] *On Behalf Of *John Swearingen
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 7 May 2013 9:38 AM
>> *To:* Global Straw Building Network
>> *Subject:* Re: [GSBN] Modeling or measuring mass effect of interior
>> plaster****
>> ** **
>> Laura,****
>> ** **
>> Modeling thermal mass is generally difficult because of the large
>> variable conditions of heat transfer related to air circulation. We've done
>> this in Energy-10 with some success, and usually our projections have come
>> out on the conservative side--the temperature swings have been less than we
>> calculated. ****
>> ** **
>> The other very large variable is climate--temperatures and sunshine at
>> different times of the year. Everyone I know who does this successfully had
>> dialed it in from years of experience in one particular climate, with which
>> they are familiar.****
>> ** **
>> As to whether the walls make a difference, the short answer is, I
>> think it makes a big difference, and that many of the lauded
>> characteristics of thermal comfort in straw bale buildings may have as much
>> to do with the thermal mass on the walls as with the insulation. Modulated
>> temperature swings can influence occupant behavior positively, reducing
>> reliance on mechanical systems, over and above straight Btu calculations.
>> ****
>> ** **
>> The ultimate efficiency of thermal mass is tied to the heat-transfer
>> mechanism for exchanging heat between the mass and the rest of the building
>> (air). A floor slab is thick and of limited surface area; bale walls are
>> thin with a much larger surface area. So floor slabs are longer term
>> storage, and walls function very effectively to modulate temperature
>> swings on a short term (diurnal) cycle which can reduce loads on mechanical
>> systems and increase comfort in passive buildings. I don't think there is
>> too much danger of over-massing, and haven't seen it in our buildings,
>> because the relatively thin mass of the walls, backed by insulation and
>> actively transferring heat, stays close to room temperature and so isn't
>> felt as too cold or hot.****
>> ** **
>> Temperature modulation can result in significant changes in how
>> mechanical heating and cooling are used by the occupants: if the building
>> is slow to cool off at night, for instance, the occupants don't call for
>> heat early in the evening. The key here is responsiveness, which is
>> related to surface area. Mass walls also help to distribute Btu's somewhat
>> between warmer and cooler areas of the building: cooler walls will absorb
>> heat more readily than warm walls, so they are somewhat of a magnet for
>> warm air when located in cooler areas of the building. ****
>> ** **
>> Well, hope this helps!****
>> ** **
>> John.****
>> ** **
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>> On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Laura Bartels <laura at greenweaver.com>
>> wrote:****
>> Hello All,****
>> ** **
>> I'm writing to ask if anyone has had experience with modeling or
>> measuring the mass effect of interior plaster of bale walls versus other
>> interior finishes. This has come up on a straw bale project in design phase
>> I've involved in which has a net zero energy goal. The project is large,
>> about 6000 sf. The owners are interested in barnwood interior wall
>> surfaces (over plaster) on all or some walls. With the net zero goal, the
>> question is what we might lose in having wood rather than exposed plaster.
>> There will be adobe floors which will already provide direct and indirect
>> gain mass. ****
>> ** **
>> Anyone tackled this topic or have a guess about how to look at this?
>> Our team has talked about estimating direct vs. indirect gain wall surfaces
>> through sun studies in ArchiCAD as a starting point. ****
>> ** **
>> Looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this.****
>> ** **
>> Laura****
>> ** **
>> ** **
>> *Laura Bartels*****
>> *GreenWeaver Inc.*****
>> *520 S. Third St., Suite 5 *****
>> *Carbondale, CO 81623
>> 970-379-6779
>> www.greenweaverinc.com*****
>> * *
>>
>> <image001.jpg>****
>> ** **
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>> ****
>> ** **
>> --
>> John Swearingen
>> Skillful Means Design & Construction
>> 2550 9th Street Suite 209A
>> Berkeley, CA 94710
>> 510.849.1800 phone
>> 510.849.1900 fax
>>
>> Web Site: http://www.skillful-means.com
>> Blog: https://skillfulmeansdesign.wordpress.com****
>> <EDG_76_AuSES-2_Tas_ThermaL_Mass.pdf>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GSBN mailing list
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>>
>> Derek Roff
>> derek at unm.edu
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> John Swearingen
> Skillful Means Design & Construction
> 2550 9th Street Suite 209A
> Berkeley, CA 94710
> 510.849.1800 phone
> 510.849.1900 fax
>
> Web Site: http://www.skillful-means.com
> Blog: https://skillfulmeansdesign.wordpress.com
> _______________________________________________
> GSBN mailing list
> GSBN at sustainablesources.com
> http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN
>
>
>
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--
John Swearingen
Skillful Means Design & Construction
2550 9th Street Suite 209A
Berkeley, CA 94710
510.849.1800 phone
510.849.1900 fax
Web Site: http://www.skillful-means.com
Blog: https://skillfulmeansdesign.wordpress.com
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