[GSBN] Can bale buildings be air tight?- How to ventilate discussion

Thu Mar 21 21:31:56 UTC 2013

Hey all!  Ive been loving this ventilation discussion  - thank you all very
much...notes taken, and will continue to be taken!

On another thread, Im developing a sustainable construction weeklong hands
on intensive for Native professionals and tribes.  Any ideas on text that
would be comprehensive, yet cover basics?  Im looking at Dan Chiras' The
New Ecological Home.  What else?   We are developing our own specific
curriculum, but want to purchase texts for the participants.

Thanks!
PennElys Droz, Sustainable Nations
www.sustainablenations.org
pennelys at sustainablenations.org

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 6:14 AM, John Straube <jfstraube at gmail.com> wrote:

> The problem with airflow windows, which have been around for 30 years or
> more, is that the heat recovery is only as efficient as an HRV during sunny
> hours.  On a 24 hour basis in winter, the heat recovery (defined as the
> ratio of the energy content of the incoming temperature and outgoing air,
> which is leaking out somewhere) is not as good as a good HRV and a triple
> glazed window.  If you couple these with an heat pump to extract heat from
> the air you exhaust, these systems can be equal or better than a good HRV.
> Of course, you need one such window  in every room to get the air to each
> room.
> A good HRV with good TG windows seems a lot cheaper and a lot simpler...
> On 2013-03-12, at 8:40 AM, Caroline Meyer White <hojtpaastraa at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi there on the other side of the pond. (Is that a general North
> American expression, or just my grandmother?)
> >
> > In Denmark, a company is selling a "ventilation window". I attached
> their flyer, it has some drawings, though in Danish) It is developed from
> an old Russian type of window, where you have two glass panes with space in
> between - like 3-4 inches. The interior pane is a well insulated double
> pane, and I believe that the exterior is only a single layer pane. The
> frame is engineered, both being a very high quality wood for windows, but
> also with detailing breaking thermal bridges. Now the secret about it, (not
> kept) is a vent with a phase changing (I believe oil substance) at the top
> and bottom. These vents do not have any energy supply, but allow air to
> flow in between the panes FROM the out side, entering at the bottom, when
> heat is required in the building. The air is pre-heated between the panes
> and reach a temperature of average 10 Celsius above what it was before it
> entered - heated by the sun hitting the outer pane and the heat loss going
> through the inner pane.
> > In summer the flow goes the other way, and the window helps cool down
> the building. The Technical University of Denmark has made some
> calculations determining that a window of the standard size (around 1,2 m2)
> on average of the four corners of the compass, contributes with 425 kWh /
> year - that is the heat gain, then comes the ventilation supply besides
> that.
> >
> > We do not have air tightness tests on SB buildings in Denmark yet. But
> this summer we are building a large residential home with these windows and
> I am very eager to see, if they will be sufficient to take care of the
> ventilation demand, as I don't know the air stream I haven't been able to
> calculate it.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Caroline
> >
> >
> > 2013/3/11 Anthony Novelli <anthony.novelli at gmail.com>
> > Thanks Chris and August...
> >
> > August, you bring up a point that might help me clarify my question... I
> would assume in cold climate situations that very little humidity would be
> required to develop condensation on exterior glass, unless employing some
> super efficient triple pane with thermal breaks. Either way those surfaces
> will be much colder than an earthen plaster or wood that spreads and holds
> warmth. Part of what I'm considering is not how to eliminate the
> condensation, but rather what to do with it while it's there? Is there a
> window sill detail for the interior that could accommodate the inevitable
> moisture present? Perhaps these are already employed and I'm out of the
> loop... just seen a lot of attention on moisture on the outside of windows
> more than inside. Even with excellent venting it seems a good passive
> fail-safe.
> >
> > Best,T
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 11:00:58 -0600
> > From: August Hasz <hasz at reginc.com>
> > To: Global Straw Building Network <GSBN at sustainablesources.com>
> > Subject: Re: [GSBN] Can bale buildings be air tight?- How to ventilate
> >         discussion
> > Message-ID: <EB70F934-A014-47AA-9BE4-03F8E2FF2884 at reginc.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> >
> > All-
> >
> > First my bias: we engineer mechanical and structural systems for
> buildings. So it goes without saying see better results from adding a level
> of control and predictability. With that bias comes a lot of experience
> looking at under ventilated homes. The discussion about building and
> occupant related pollutants is a big factor, but misses another crucial
> component- condensation due to moisture. The building envelope may be
> permeable enough to survive, but in cold climates condensation on windows
> is unavoidable without controlling moisture in the home. In cold climates
> what we see time and time again for a remotely tight home (homes with 2 or
> 3 times the air leakage we are talking about here) is significant
> condensation build-up resulting in damaged materials and mold growth on
> surfaces. This primarily at windows due to the cold temps, but if there is
> any other location were the insulation detail isn't right problems will
> happen there as well.
> >
> > We have had a number clients/friends decide to skip the ventilation
> system over the years, and every time what ends up happening is they are
> either forced to run bathroom fans continuously in the winter (heat loss)
> or find a way to retrofit an HRV or ERV in. That applies to standard
> construction, bales, anything you build that is somewhat well sealed. We
> all know retrofits are expensive and to be avoided, so why leave it to
> chance?
> >
> > This probably is not too much of a surprise in the high-mountains of
> Crested Butte, Colorado, I assume the effect is worse in Chris' backyard. I
> was however surprised to see it is a big problem even in Moab. Moab is
> where we go to thaw our bones out in the middle of winter, it isn't cold
> right? We have been involved in the Community Rebuilds project happening
> there (If you aren't familiar, make sure and check out what Emily Niehaus
> has started over there, we are now starting one in our valley as well) and
> 3 homes had significant condensation on windows this winter resulting in a
> mold problem and damaged finishes. The result is that all future CR homes
> will have HRV's.
> >
> > From my perspective there is no debate: build it tight, and ventilate
> right. Relaxing the tightness of the home just leaves it up to chance- did
> I make it leaky enough for the building envelope to dry? enough to get the
> moisture out of the air? enough to get the result of cooking (gas
> combustion and lots of other pollutants)? It isn't' worth the risk to
> building occupants or to the building. Do we want to have a realization 10
> years from now about health problems from a homes that seemed leaky enough,
> but oops not quite? Daily life makes pollutants, even if we are all
> watching everything we do (breathing, showering, cooking). So now I have a
> choice of how to ventilate: crack a window? exhaust fan? or HRV/ERV? Only
> the heat/energy recovery ventilator allows for exchanging air efficiently.
> The others are fighting against all the great work you put into the
> building envelope.
> >
> > My 5 cents-
> >
> > August
> >
> > _________________________
> >
> >
> > August Hasz, PE, Principal
> > LEED AP
> > Resource Engineering Group, Inc.
> > Mail: Box 3725
> > Delivery: 502 Whiterock Ave., Suite 102
> > Crested Butte, CO 81224 USA
> > Tel: 970-349-1216
> > hasz at reginc.com
> > www.reginc.com
> > _________________________
> > _______________________________________________
> > GSBN mailing list
> > GSBN at sustainablesources.com
> > http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Caroline, Tahir, Noah
> >
> > Friland 11, 8410 Rønde, Denmark, tlf. (+45) 40 76 19 80, skypename:
> caroline.meyer.white
> >
> > <Horn ventilations vindue
> katalog.pdf>_______________________________________________
> > GSBN mailing list
> > GSBN at sustainablesources.com
> > http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN
>
> John Straube
> www.JohnStraube.com
>
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-- 
PennElys Droz, M.S. Director

Sustainable Nations
PO Box 3745
Tucson, AZ  85722
www.sustainablenations.org

*"If you have come to help me, you are wasting your time. But if you have
come because your liberation is bound up with mine, then let us work
together."      Lila Watson*
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