[GSBN] Update, question re: proposed SB code (hay bales)
Chris Magwood
chris at chrismagwood.ca
Thu Feb 9 18:02:03 UTC 2012
Martin,
Flax bales are really great building bales (tough stalks, very moisture
resistant, dirt cheap), as are hemp bales (though it's unlikely that
will matter in any American codes). We've also built with spelt and rye,
both of which were really good bales because they have un-modified stalk
lengths and thicknesses and make good straw. There are a bunch of switch
grass growers up here and their bales look great, though I haven't used
them yet.
Instead of having to define every species of plant stem that could work,
could a straw bale be defined as being composed of dry stalks of grasses
or cereal grains with no more than x amount of leaf and x amount of seed
by volume? Any type of grass with most of the leaf gone and most of the
seed gone will work. If I let my lawn grow to its usual height, I often
look at it and think that I could get at least 4 decent bales off of it
by fall. Those stalks are as good as any straw.
Does it matter exactly how you specify those x-figures for leaf and
seed? Since the exact amounts are unlikely to be measured, it would give
a marker that, whoa, there's a lot of green stuff or a lot of seed in
here, maybe these aren't good. How about 5% by volume? Too round a
number? How about 6.8%? If I were an inspector looking at a bale and saw
a whole whack of greenery or seed in it and knew that there was a
percentage that wasn't good, I'd ask the question. I know the codes
aren't a place to be flippant, but all you'd be trying to do is raise a
red flag about the stuff we don't want in there.
Chris
On 12-02-09 9:52 AM, martin hammer wrote:
> Derek,
>
> Thanks for persisting with this. You're right that if only straw from
> the five named plants is permitted, then everything else is not
> pemitted, including hay. But sometimes something is so commonly
> misused, it's worth explicitly prohibiting it. On the other hand, I
> was actually revisiting the issue of building with hay bales. (Is it
> in fact a misuse.)
>
> You're also right that alfalfa is often referred to as hay (the words
> "alfalfa hay" were spoken to me yesterday) and it is not a grass,
> which I didn't know until looking it up just now. You raise a good
> point. And according to at least some definitions, cereal grains are
> a type of grass (or graminoid). So stating that hay (cut and dried
> grass) is prohibited seems to unwittingly also prohibit the use of
> straw from cereal grains. (Depending on what definitions are agreed
> upon.) (RT seems to concur that cereal grain plants are grasses.)
>
> And flax? Maybe. That's why I opened the question. Should flax be
> added to the list of permitted building bale materials? I've never
> seen a test that included flax bales, which could be a problem when
> this is all scrutinized. But I don't believe I've seen a test with
> rye straw bales either. As with virtually every small and large part
> of this, pandora's box is not far away.
>
> The task here, as with every inch of the proposed code, is to find the
> best place to draw the line, all relevant things considered.
>
> Do you want to propose how this should be worded?
>
> Martin
>
>
> On 2/8/12 7:59 PM, "Derek Roff" <derek at unm.edu> wrote:
>
> "I don't think hay vs. straw is as fuzzy as you suggest." How
> fuzzy did I suggest? For people who are paying attention to
> strawbale building, I agree that the distinction is clear enough.
> But the number of articles and reports, and even occasional
> statements from SB home owners, that mention "hay bale houses" is
> high enough, that I think there is plenty of confusion in the
> broader public. My guess is that lots of code officials, who
> spend most of their time with concrete and frame construction, may
> not immediately grasp the distinction. For example, alfalfa is
> called hay, is sold without seed heads, and isn't a grass, nor a
> cereal.
>
> Your response says that, for the purposes of the code, straw
> allowed for construction is one of five plants. With that
> language in the code, hay is banned, whether it is mentioned or
> not. For what it is worth, the few people who have posted to the
> SB lists on building with flax bales have rated flax as their
> favorite bale material.
>
> Derelict
> Derek Roff
> derek at unm.edu
>
> On Feb 8, 2012, at 7:24 PM, martin hammer wrote:
>
> Re: [GSBN] Update, question re: proposed SB code (hay bales)
> Hi Derek,
>
> The code proposal doesn't define hay. When words are not
> defined in the code, they have "ordinarily accepted meanings
> such as the context implies." A short dictionary definition
> of hay is "cut and dried grass". Which is a rather cut and
> dried definition.
>
> Straw is defined in the code proposal as "The dry stems of
> cereal grains after the seed heads have been removed." (Though
> the allowed straw is currently limited to five cereal grains -
> wheat, rice, rye, barley, and oat) (am I missing any that
> anyone uses?)
>
> Even without hay being defined in the code, I don't think hay
> vs. straw is as fuzzy as you suggest. However, I might ask
> ICC for their opinion on whether hay should be defined.
>
> Martin
>
>
> On 2/8/12 5:13 PM, "Derek Roff" <derek at unm.edu
> <x-msg://63/derek@unm.edu> > wrote:
>
> How does the code proposal define hay? Hay vs. straw is a
> fuzzy distinction, especially if you want to compare
> current agricultural products with those of a hundred
> years ago. The use of synthetic fertilizers and new grain
> varieties make historical comparisons less valuable for
> code work, in my opinion. Anything grown with a high dose
> of synthetic fertilizer is likely to be more subject to
> spontaneous combustion.
>
> Derelict
>
> Derek Roff
> derek at unm.edu <x-msg://63/derek@unm.edu>
>
> On Feb 8, 2012, at 4:04 PM, martin hammer wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> After resubmitting the proposed SB code to the
> International Code Council last week, I received their
> comments and will submit final revisions on Monday.
>
> Thank you to those who gave input re: clay plaster in
> the proposed SB section of the International Building
> Code. There was a mix of opinion, sometimes in direct
> conflict. I used some of the suggested changes. I
> generally loosened the language (we'll see how much
> vagueness is accepted without challenge) and
> eliminated any required percentage of clay. I still
> welcome clay plaster input from those who expressed
> initial interest, but whose busy lives probably got in
> the way (but asap please). Particular thanks to
> Graeme North who gave input on the entire proposed
> code (as he did in a past iteration).
>
> One other question for input:
>
> Prohibit use of baled hay? (That's what the proposed
> code currently says.)
>
> This is the conventional wisdom, but weren't some of
> the first buildings in Nebraska built with hay bales
> (some still standing?), or has anyone successfully
> used hay bales (or bales with other non-straw
> "grasses")? Yesterday I had a discussion with a
> California rice farmer who bales straw and alfalfa
> hay. He says that apart from the notion that hay is
> more subject to degradation, hay is 2 to 3 times as
> expensive so is much less likely to be used as a
> building material. Regarding the notorious proclivity
> for stacks of hay bales to spontaneously combust, in
> addition to witnessing that, he has twice seen a stack
> of rice straw bales spontaneously combust.
>
> Thanks
>
> Martin (what the hay) Hammer
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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www.chrismagwood.ca
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