[GSBN] Question about SB insulation at foundation/ceiling

Wed Jan 25 01:03:50 UTC 2012

Back in 2004 I blew rice hulls into a floor of a pier and beam house.
The hulls formed a 12-inch bed.
There were absolutely no problems with this approach.

The entire floor was from 3 to 5 feet above ground.
I also put 12 inches of rice hulls in the walls and attic.
See: http://esrla.com/pdf/ricehullhouse.pdf
There were about 20 tons of rice hulls incorporated into this house.

Thanks.
Paul Olivier

On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 7:37 AM, Bohdan Dorniak <
bohdan at bdcoarchitects.com.au> wrote:

> David maaaaate– you can’t guarantee that the bales won’t rot.****
>
> I agree with Bruce.****
>
> You’re asking for big trouble. (Hope you have lots of insurance cover!)***
> *
>
> Strawbales should only be used in walls –using strawbales under floor have
> too many damp issues.****
>
> I’d like to hear a response from our colleague in New Zealand (Graeme)
> where moisture is a real problem.****
>
> Bohdan “don’t like using bales under floors” Dorniak****
>
> Architect, South Australia****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* GSBN-bounces at sustainablesources.com [mailto:
> GSBN-bounces at sustainablesources.com] *On Behalf Of *David Arkin, AIA
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 25 January 2012 10:34 AM
>
> *To:* Global Straw Building Network
> *Subject:* Re: [GSBN] Question about SB insulation at foundation/ceiling**
> **
>
> ** **
>
> In slab on grade situations we're now using mineral wool, aka rock wool,
> which is available in panels and becoming increasingly easy to get here in
> the US, and it's been around for quite some time.  Roxul is one brand:
> http://www.roxul.com/building+envelope/products/roxul+drainboard®<http://www.roxul.com/building+envelope/products/roxul+drainboard%C2%AE>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> They claim that the energy used in manufacturing is recovered within three
> weeks of installation.  It isn't the least expensive solution, but it is
> entirely rot resistant, and it isn't petroleum.  We've also used EPS under
> slabs, employing the wisdom of Buckminster Fuller, "We have more than
> enough petroleum to meet our needs, if we'd only stop burning it."  Rigid
> foam insulation which enables a building to need less heating or cooling is
> a justifiable investment, imho.****
>
> ** **
>
> That all said, this idea of bales under a floor - even a slab on grade -
> intrigues me, and I do believe one can create a condition where the risk of
> rot is minimized.  However, building occupants would need to know that
> frequent (or maybe any) mopping of floors is not possible, and I'd still
> prefer to see the bales considered as sacrificial.  If the bales were
> staggered slightly in both directions one could have occasional piers
> (roughly 2' (0.6m) o.c. in one direction and ±3'-9" (±1.15m) o.c. the
> other, depending on bale size) that would take over the supporting of the
> floor if the bales were to deteriorate.  ****
>
> ** **
>
> And of course John Straube beats me to the 'send' button yet again!****
>
> ** **
>
> David ****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 11:17 AM, forum at lamaisonenpaille.com wrote:****
>
>
>
> ****
>
> It is true that (raised) SB floor insulation are getting more popular here
> in Europe but this worries me somewhat because in my pré-SB life I have
> seen at least 3 floors with water 'standing' on it due to : a frozen water
> pipe, a broken down washing machine and (the most fun) a friend who put a
> few beers in the botom of the shower and he opened the tab so the running
> water would cool the drinks while taking a siesta in our spanish hotel in
> my 20's. His nap was interupted when the people below saw water comming
> through the ceiling...  My moral of the story : If  don't use waterpipes in
> cold countries, wash in an outhouse and be carefull when choosing your
> friends if you use 'compostable' floor insulation.
> Sure, some claim that they detail in such a way that water cannot
> penetrate, but I wonder how this is done in a perfect, cost effective and
> durable manner. In any case, the french insurance companies made sure SB
> floor insulation was deleted from our proposal for the recently approved
> french SB building rules (I wonder why? ;-).
>
> An interesting technique sometimes used in France is using a tiny fan to
> blow the hot air (from below the roofing) through pipes under the slab (at
> a well calculate dept) so that with the time lag this heat comes up during
> winter. Seems like a clever idea to take away the heat where we don't want
> it in a way it becomes available where and when we do appreciate it. I have
> no details of it and there might be practical disadvantages that makes this
> system less ideal than one might think...
>
> André - fan of locally made slippers - de Bouter
> France
>
>
>
>
> Le 24/01/2012 19:10, Laura Bartels a écrit :****
>
> In the project I just finished, we used bagged perlite insulation over 6
> inches of 3/4" washed gravel covered by a vapor/radon barrier. The perlite
> was tamped, finishing at 7" for an R-value of 21.9. It is a regional
> material here, minimally processed, light to transport, and non-toxic. So
> far, I'm very satisfied with this choice and would like to do more with
> this material. It is installed under an adobe floor with good results. I
> had had conversations with Daniel Silvernail, who had also used perlite
> underfloor, as well as builders in the northwest US. I know there's been
> some discussion of perlite on this list which I believe I missed due to my
> schedule at the time.****
>
> ** **
>
> On a related note, I have just spent a few days with Arlene Blum, PhD and
> director of the Green Science Policy Institute and learned much more detail
> of the toxicity of flame retardants which are added to most foam building
> insulations as well as foams in furniture. More info can be found here -
> http://greensciencepolicy.org/non-toxic-building-materials. There are
> some very interesting elements of this issue, one of which is that the
> flame retardants not only give little reduction in burn time (as in
> seconds) but also add several additional problems if a fire does occur,
> such as increased carbon monoxide, soot, along with the cancer causing
> chemicals that are unregulated as they do not fall under the jurisdiction
> of EPA or FDA, but are mandated through building standards. And for
> underslab insulations, flame retardants don't make sense anyway. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Best,****
>
> Laura****
>
> ** **
>
> *Laura Bartels*****
>
> *GreenWeaver Inc.*****
>
> *520 S. Third St., Suite 5 *****
>
> *Carbondale, CO 81623
> 970-379-6779
> www.greenweaverinc.com*****
>
> ** **
>
>
> <Mail Attachment.jpeg>****
>
> ** **
>
> *We've moved to the Third St. Center *****
>
> *http://thirdstreetcenter.net/* <http://thirdstreetcenter.net/>****
>
> *A community place promoting inspiration, sustainability and creative
> exchange*****
>
> ** **
>
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 10:09 AM, Derek Roff wrote:****
>
>
>
> ****
>
> It would be nice to be able to choose from a richer range of choices than
> the functional, but high embodied energy, toxic, petroleum foam vs. a more
> benign product that may rot.  Making a "lesser of two evils" choice
> guarantees choosing something evil.  It would be great to have ten choices
> with generally positive attributes, but we do have at least one additional
> option.  As I understand it, Roxul Drainboard rigid mineral fiber
> insulation is more environmentally benign than petroleum foam, and more
> resistant to destruction from human, insect, and rodent activities.  One of
> the comments in the links that Joyce gave indicates that Roxul Drainboard
> was selling at a lower cost per R-value, as well, at that time in early
> 2011, in Virginia, if I remember correctly.  I've never used it.  Any
> comments from someone who has?  Any other alternatives that you favor?****
>
> ** **
>
> Derelict****
>
> ** **
>
> Derek Roff****
>
> derek at unm.edu****
>
> ** **
>
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:32 AM, Bruce King wrote:****
>
>
>
> ****
>
> The idea of using any cellulosic material at or near grade just makes me
> nervous and ill.  We have a world of experience telling us that wood,
> paper-faced gypsum board and straw don't last long there, or anywhere near
> there.  Recall Kim Thompson's well-documented problems using bales between
> floor joists over a Nova Scotia crawlspace.****
>
> ** **
>
> But how, then, to insulate?  I guess I would argue for the use of a
> naturally-occuring substance that can make a durable and also effective
> insulator in the presence of moisture, namely petroleum.  It takes a bit of
> unpleasant processing to turn oil into foam (that is, something that
> entraps air which is the real insulator), and god knows we need to improve
> on the weird stuff currently on the market.  But if there is any good use
> for petroleum, this is surely one.  Not for our cars, not for crappy
> plastic packaging & throwaway junk, but for effective, durable, reuseable
> insulation.****
>
> ** **
>
> Or anyway I'm still waiting for a viable "natural" ground insulation
> suggestion that isn't a super labor intensive fuss job.****
>
> ** **
>
> Shredded plastic bags, anyone?****
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks,****
>
> ** **
>
> Bruce "Oil gladly pay you Tuesday for some polyisocyanurate today!" King**
> **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On Jan 24, 2012, at 8:08 AM, Frank Tettemer wrote:****
>
>
>
> ****
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have just received a message from the designer of the yoga centre, that
> I was busy criticizing in my previous post.
> The Sivananda Yoga Centre is still alive and well over a decade later.
>
> I apologize to the GSBN group, and to Michel Bergeron, for handing down
> that mis-information about the Sivananda Yoga Centre. Michel has had no
> such reports of mold problems, and as the designer, he would certainly be
> the first to hear about it.  It takes a foolish commnet from someone like
> me, to deeply upset the credibility of straw bale construction. And worst
> of all, this negative comment coming from a straw bale builder!
>
> There's a strong lesson in all this for me, to examine all my sources of
> information, and to not speak about things of which I have no first hand
> knowledge.
>
> Deeply chagrined, deeply humbled,
>
> Frank Tettemer
>
>
> On Jan 24, 2012, Derek Roff wrote:
> I'm not sure if this discussion is still alive on the linked site that
> Joyce posted.  The newest posting is just about a year old, but perhaps the
> discussion will warm up again.  Bruce King posted a comment last year, when
> the discussion was current.
>
> Something that wasn't mentioned in the article or comments is the naive
> assumptions regarding the effective insulation value of the strawbale
> waffle slab design, even before the bales start to rot.  The assertion is
> made, and not challenged, that the under-slab strawbale insulation would
> provide R-50.  Whatever number we accept as the insulative value of each
> bale, the thermal bridging of the concrete in the matrix would cut the
> effective insulation of the waffle slab design dramatically.  Thermal
> bridging isn't a problem with the design sketch that Joyce included, but
> the risk of rot probably remains.
>
> There is an alternative approach that uses bales as floor insulation, but
> above grade.  After a European Straw Building gathering a few years ago,
> traveling with Catherine Wanek, I visited SB buildings in half a dozen
> countries, including several that used strawbales in the floors, to meet
> Passiv Haus design goals.  All of these structures were build on piers, so
> that the bales were above grade and isolated from the moisture concerns
> that afflict buried bales.  Here is a link to one example, the S-Haus in
> Austria.
>
> http://www.s-house.at/presentations.htm
>
> Bale-on,
> Derelict
>
> Derek Roff
> derek at unm.edu <mailto:derek at unm.edu <derek at unm.edu>>
>
> On Jan 23, 2012, at 10:40 AM, Frank Tettemer wrote:
>
> Well now,
> that is pretty interesting.
> Thanks, Joyce, for sounding the alarm.
>
> Before I actually (physically and personally), had built any SB houses, I
> naturally ass-u-me-d that bales in the floor and ceiling were a good idea.
> It is too bad that the article in finehomebuilding references the
> experimental work of Michel Bergeron, of ArchiBio, in the ground-breaking
> book of Steen/Steen/Bainbridge/and Eisenberg.  I love the book, and it is
> what gave me hope for the idea of burying bales below grade.
>
> Fortunately for me, Linda Chapman, (archi. from Ottawa), talked with me
> about doing this in the early nineties.
> She had boldly gone where no one had gone before. And the floor rotted.
>
> And there was the evidence from the huge three-story yoga retreat centre,
> built in Quebec,
> which was such a rotten embarrassment, that I won't mention it anymore.
>
> Then there's the theory that if you stick each bale into a garbage bad
> before you bury them under the floor ...
> just to say I did, I took a bale, put it into a garbage bag, and placed it
> into a weather-protected shed, to see what happened.
> First of all, it took three trys with the garbage bad to place a bale into
> it, without it being punctured by straw.
> Secondly, during the summer of 2000, which was a fairly wet year, the bale
> self-composted, with out having had a drop of rain on it. I imagine that
> relative humidity was all it took. It was full of mildew in two months time.
>
> I have to say, though, that the idea is so intriguing, that it captures
> the imagination of quite a few clients, who would wish me to design a
> foundation using straw bales.
> Maybe it's just a stupid idea, here in a climate with huge weather
> extremes, (+35C to -35C), and many days of damp rainy weather?
> Maybe all the ideas have not been tried as yet?
>
> Frank****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
>
> *  *  *  *  *****
>
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>
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>
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>
> ** **
>
> David Arkin, AIA, Architect****
>
> LEED Accredited Professional****
>
> CA #C22459/NV #5030****
>
> ** **
>
> 1101 8th St. #180, Berkeley, CA  94710****
>
> 510/528-9830****
>
> www.arkintilt.com****
>
> ** **
>
> "There is no way to peace. Peace is the way."****
>
> — A. J. Muste ****
>
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-- 
Paul A. Olivier PhD
27C Pham Hong Thai Street
Dalat
Vietnam

Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam)
Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam)
Skype address: Xpolivier
http://www.esrla.com/
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