[GSBN] [SB-r-us] Re: earth floor odds and ends

[Bill Steen]

I'm forwarding this from the SB-R-us list these comments by Harry Francis, who, since we've been expanding the boundaries of this list, I would suggest for membership in that he is certainly one of the most knowledgeable people in this country (planet) when it comes to anything pertaining to lime.  So I guess I'm proposing him for membership.


Bill Steen
bill at caneloproject.com
www.caneloproject.com
www.caneloproject.com/blog
HC1 Box 324
Elgin, AZ85611






On Jan 7, 2012, at 9:00 AM, CALXA at aol.com wrote:

> Hi Bill and the group, 
> 
> Just a few comments on clay floors.... 
> 
> 
> I would expect "properly treated" clay floors to be extremely well suited 
> in areas where the clay content of the soil exceeds 10-12%. Then mixed with 
> 5% or so hydrated lime, makes a wonderful compactable floor. The pH of the 
> lime kills all bacteria, fungi and virus, and reacts with the silica ( 
> clay) to make a calcium silicate mass (cement). Now, treated with oil, there is 
> a chemical reaction called saponification (soap making), resulting in a 
> water insoluble grease, which makes the floor water proof. (This is the same 
> chemical result that occurs if one has hard water, and when bathing, a 
> ring forms in the bathtub. This is the reaction between the oil on one's body 
> and the lime in the water). 
> 
> When adding lime to soils, if the clay content is not high enough, then the 
> cementing action does not occur... And, if adding too little lime, the 
> clay particles are agglomerated, creating soil particles that can be compacted 
> nicely, but are not water proofed. So, it is appropriate to determine the 
> amount of lime to be used. Also, the amount of lime needs to be sufficient 
> to raise the pH of the mixture to above 12 in order to control bacteria, 
> virus and fungi.
> 
> I suggest one could take a quart sample of the soil, and place in a tub of 
> water. Then add hi-calcium hydrated lime to the mix, stirring, let settle, 
> and then reading the pH of the water. Add just enough lime to raise the pH 
> to 12+. (The silica in the Clay soil becomes chemically active above pH 
> 11).
> 
> Now, if the floor is in an area of high moisture, it may be possible to 
> first placing a layer of treated soil, with oils mixed in, to make a water 
> proof lower level. Then add the remainder of lime treated soils, and compact.
> 
> Once compacted, but still moist, treat the surface with a fatty acid - oil, 
> forming a layer of Water insoluble soap ( grease)...(interesting, one 
> makes water insoluble yellow wheel bearing grease by adding oils to a lime 
> water solution, at warm temperatures---just like the bath tub ring is formed.).
> 
> Happy New Year to all...
> 
> 
> Harry Francis
> 
> .
> 
> In a message dated 1/6/2012 12:23:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 
> bill at caneloproject.com writes:
> 
> On Jan 5, 2012, at 6:31 PM, RT wrote:
> 
> Actually he wrote a whole lot of things that I will try to keep short. And 
> given the nature of my response to Rob Tom's comments, I'll change the 
> thread to that of earth floor generalities.
> And thanks Bruce for waking us up. Just for clarity what I've written is 
> not in defense of earthen floors nor in the interest of promoting them, but 
> rather one of clearing up what I would consider to be misconceptions.
> 
> The first of Rob's comments had to deal with soil borne illnesses. Without 
> research I suspect the list is long. In our part of the world, one of the 
> most common is Valley Fever that results from fungal particles in the soil. 
> Come through the lungs via respiration. Don't know a whole lot more about 
> others, but I suspect that moisture and poor hygiene would have a lot to do 
> with the hookworms. As we all know moisture is often the culprit in many 
> problematic situations, in this circle, one of the main causes of insect 
> infestations in straw bale walls - as often pointed out by the illustrious 
> Robbie Tom.
> > 
> > 
> > Me ? Despite Beel's best efforts, I never really became a big fan of 
> earthen floors for my locale.
> 
> God forbid, you would be the last guy I would try to convince on anything, 
> much less make a fan out of. Hah! But I will pay you a compliment in 
> saying that from all the lists that I've been a part of with you, I've learned a 
> whole hell of a lot. Initially I was trying to address the need for 
> concrete, but since he has widened the discussion below, I'll take the bait and 
> go with it. He's good at that.
> > 
> > One :
> > 
> > Earthen floors make a lot of sense in places the climate is such that 
> earth-coupling is a reasonable proposition. That is not the case in most, if 
> not all of Canada.
> > 
> > In order to use an earthen floor in this climate, it would be necessary 
> to de-couple it from the earth with at least R-20 worth of insulation 
> (assuming that the floor is at or near grade)
> > 
> > It would also be necessary to provide an effective strategy to prevent 
> soil-gas intrusion into the indoor air environment, something that is less 
> of a concern in climates where air-tight construction/super-insulation is 
> not essential.
> > 
> > The above almost relegate earthen floors to being not much more than a 
> cosmetic veneer to provide a pastiche of "natural" earth-connectedness.
> 
> I will take advantage of Robbie's comments to clarify a few things here, 
> certainly I would not try to argue with the guy.
> Any floors that we've been involved with have been de-coupled from the 
> earth at least as far as I understand the concept and the term.
> Typically we install a substrate that drains moisture/water away from the 
> floor, most often stone/gravel. No objection here to a poly liner if needed 
> or whatever.
> Insulation we always use.
> Soil-gas? Never had to deal with it, but I would assume that one would 
> incorporate the same measures that one would with a concrete slab.
> So therefore we are talking about something more than a veneer.
> 
> When it comes to earth coupled floors in the traditional sense, I have 
> more experience with them than the average person. I frequent a little adobe 
> home in northern Mexico where a couple in their 70s live. The house is 
> immaculate, the floors, by their choice, but by poverty is only lightly 
> compacted dirt that is maintained by sprinkling with water and sweeping. Perhaps a 
> little addition of dirt every now and then. It's a lovely experience, the 
> little bit of moisture on the floor creates fabulous ambiance during the hot 
> summer. And of course, this is a context specific application that would 
> be of little use in Ontario. I'm sure they don't have hookworms either. In 
> essence, what I want to say is that the variables are many in this case and 
> generalizing doesn't yield much in the way of useful information.
> > 
> > 
> > Two:
> > I was stunned by the volume of oil that Beel told me was needed to 
> adequately "condition" soil mixes to rendered them serviceable as finished 
> surfaces (by Auntie Septic's North American standards of performance). I 
> remember my Mom telling me that back in Olde China where human labour was cheap, 
> the floor guys simply pounded the $#!+ out of the earth to compact it and 
> called it a floor.
> 
> Thinking back, I suspect that my comments may have been somewhat 
> exaggerated, most likely to irritate old Robbie. I've thought a great deal about the 
> oils and earthen floors these days and am re-thinking a lot of earlier 
> assumptions. Only thing I'm missing or lacking is a whole bunch of testing, 
> but at the moment I'm having much more fun in Mexico, that place where most 
> are terrified to go these days. However, I did coax Greg McMillan, one of 
> CA's original straw bale souls down there last month. But back to oils for 
> the moment. As for the amount, instead of progressively thinned application 
> of linseed oil, it may well be that one full strength coat may be sufficient 
> in most applications. Or a tad bit more. As for the type of oil, we've 
> never used or promoted chemical laden boiled linseed oil, I think we've beat 
> that discussion to death by now. However, some pretty loose testing on my 
> part suggests that almost any average grade cooking oil may be good enough 
> for a lot of applications. For now, we can avoid any discussion about the 
> downside of GMO modified corn oil. Let's just say there are options.
> 
> As far as Robbie's mom and pounded floor, it's quite true, but there are 
> often subtle variations. The kind of floor he describes is common all over 
> the world. The one I described in Mexico is that way, but clearly not suited 
> for most modern houses. In Japan, such a floor is referred to as a 
> "Tataki" floor, which essentially means "pounded" The trick with making those 
> floors work however, is the addition of a small amount of lime and "nigari" or 
> "magnesium chloride" that is commonly a by-product of salt production and a 
> key ingredient in the making of tofu.
> > 
> > I found Beel's revelation to be disturbing given the horror stories 
> about woodworkers' linseed-oil-soaked finishing rags spontaneously combusting 
> ... not to mention the potential for long-term pollution of interiors due to 
> the plentiful VOCs that such large volumes of oil would necessarily 
> generate. Again, not so much of an issue in warmer climes where high air change 
> rates would be okay.
> 
> Again, I think like traditional earth floors, we've pounded this 
> sufficiently. We've always used raw linseed oil that we sun-thicken so it dries more 
> quickly. As far as I have been able to detect, msds sheets included, 
> conversations with producers, that oil contains no voc compounds. I'm certainly 
> open to the possibility that I've missed something in my investigations, 
> perhaps, but it's not obvious at first glance. I can tell you one thing, 
> boiled linseed oil has very offensive odors, raw linseed oil nothing I can 
> detect, doesn't smell much different than food-grade flaxseed oil in the health 
> food stores. Probably the significant difference between the two would be 
> whether or not the oil is organically produced and the method which is 
> used. I will admit that citrus thinner that we've used for a while has in 
> recent years become suspect and isn't always considered as desirable as once 
> thought. I will say though that in floors that we've been a part of, lingering 
> odors ha ve never been a problem.
> > 
> > Three:
> > 
> > Drying of the oil treatment. I've found that when treating timbers with 
> linseed oil, it is best done during the heat of summer with the timbers 
> outside in full sun and exposed to breezes. To do otherwise either results in 
> insufficient depth of penetration of oil (ie not enough oil applied to do 
> much good) ... or incomplete polymerisation of the oil resulting in a 
> surface that remains tacky and prone to bleeding for a long, long time ... and 
> over that period, being a magnet for air-borne crud and subsequent microbial 
> activity within the accumulated crud -- not the stuff of healthy interiors, 
> besides looking like hell.
> 
> Agreed, that is why we've always recommend applying to the oil to floors 
> that are sufficiently warm and with oil that has been warmed.
> > 
> > But one then wonders, why not forget about trying to make the earthen 
> floor a finished surface and thereby forego all of the sometimes-nasty 
> stabilisers and simply use the earthen floor as a substrate for a baked-hard 
> earthen mix (ie clay tile) or stone ?
> 
> First of all we've always recommended earthen floor substrates for the 
> finished earthen floor surface that we are really discussing here. In our 
> efforts over the years, especially in Mexico we've tried just about everything 
> imaginable over earthen mix substrates. As I pointed out yesterday, 
> broken-up pieces of concrete slabs of various thicknesses we've used. Clay tiles, 
> we haven't but I know they'd work and have been used traditionally that way 
> forever. I live on baked clay tiles and love them. We've done very thin 
> concrete pours over well-compacted earth, have performed admirably without the 
> usual 3 inch or more thickness. We've made the equivalent of clay tiles 
> out of cement and sand - worked quite well. Stone when available. And just 
> for those playing around in Haiti and elsewhere, we've never done them in 
> low-cost housing for people of little resources mainly because we thought it 
> an inappropriate choice mostly due to durability issues.
> 
> But perhaps the most significant thing I want to say other than to dispel 
> some of the myths above is that I'm certainly not taking the position of 
> promoting these kinds of floors. I think that there is a place for them and 
> for people who appreciate them for what they are. We can discuss the 
> technical aspects forever, but I think there is another side to this discussion 
> which is mostly intangible. There is a different quality to clay that makes 
> it distinct from concrete, plastics and the like. I'm not against concrete, 
> rather in favor of sensible use of it. Clay has a very different feel and 
> energy to it. Let me take one example to illustrate this. Recently we were 
> called to Ft Huachuca, the military base near us to consult on building some 
> adobe buildings. They wanted to do research on them and needed them 
> similar to those built in Afghanistan. The reason was that the technology they 
> had developed which allowed them to see through any kinds of walls - 
> concrete, cemen t stabilized earthen mixes, wood, what-have-you, could not see 
> through adobe or earthen walls. Now you can do what you want with that 
> observation, but it does point out a significant difference. Me? I'll take it down 
> the mystical road if you like.
> 
> The other thought I leave you with is from my Native American 
> mother-in-law (architect mind you), who several years ago built an insulated adobe home 
> in northern New Mexico. After having grown-up on earth floors in Santa 
> Clara Pueblo and in a passive solar adobe in Santa Fe, she decided to go with 
> concrete in her new home. She loves the house, it's beautiful and tasteful, 
> written up in my blog, New Mexico magazine and Lloyd Kahn's new book "Tiny 
> Homes." There is one thing that she regrets with her new home and that is 
> the concrete floor. From her perspective (subjective mind you) is that the 
> concrete is much harder on her feet and legs and in general, more 
> uncomfortable. I realize this is a subjective area, but I would also argue that 
> there is a significant difference between the two. 
> 
> And that's way more than enough, for me, that's about a year's worth on 
> this list. Back to translating a Mexican cookbook.
> 
> Bill Steen
> _bill at caneloproject.com_ (mailto:bill at caneloproject.com) 
> www.caneloproject.com
> www.caneloproject.com/blog
> HC1 Box 324
> Elgin, AZ85611
> 
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