<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I'm forwarding this from the SB-R-us list these comments by Harry Francis, who, since we've been expanding the boundaries of this list, I would suggest for membership in that he is certainly one of the most knowledgeable people in this country (planet) when it comes to anything pertaining to lime. So I guess I'm proposing him for membership.<div><br></div><div><br><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Bill Steen</div><div><a href="mailto:bill@caneloproject.com">bill@caneloproject.com</a></div><div><a href="http://www.caneloproject.com">www.caneloproject.com</a></div><div><a href="http://www.caneloproject.com/blog">www.caneloproject.com/blog</a></div><div>HC1 Box 324</div><div>Elgin, AZ85611</div><div><br></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<br><div><div>On Jan 7, 2012, at 9:00 AM, <a href="mailto:CALXA@aol.com">CALXA@aol.com</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
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<div id="ygrp-text"><p>Hi Bill and the group, <br>
<br>
Just a few comments on clay floors.... <br>
<br>
<br>
I would expect "properly treated" clay floors to be extremely well suited <br>
in areas where the clay content of the soil exceeds 10-12%. Then mixed with <br>
5% or so hydrated lime, makes a wonderful compactable floor. The pH of the <br>
lime kills all bacteria, fungi and virus, and reacts with the silica ( <br>
clay) to make a calcium silicate mass (cement). Now, treated with oil, there is <br>
a chemical reaction called saponification (soap making), resulting in a <br>
water insoluble grease, which makes the floor water proof. (This is the same <br>
chemical result that occurs if one has hard water, and when bathing, a <br>
ring forms in the bathtub. This is the reaction between the oil on one's body <br>
and the lime in the water). <br>
<br>
When adding lime to soils, if the clay content is not high enough, then the <br>
cementing action does not occur... And, if adding too little lime, the <br>
clay particles are agglomerated, creating soil particles that can be compacted <br>
nicely, but are not water proofed. So, it is appropriate to determine the <br>
amount of lime to be used. Also, the amount of lime needs to be sufficient <br>
to raise the pH of the mixture to above 12 in order to control bacteria, <br>
virus and fungi.<br>
<br>
I suggest one could take a quart sample of the soil, and place in a tub of <br>
water. Then add hi-calcium hydrated lime to the mix, stirring, let settle, <br>
and then reading the pH of the water. Add just enough lime to raise the pH <br>
to 12+. (The silica in the Clay soil becomes chemically active above pH <br>
11).<br>
<br>
Now, if the floor is in an area of high moisture, it may be possible to <br>
first placing a layer of treated soil, with oils mixed in, to make a water <br>
proof lower level. Then add the remainder of lime treated soils, and compact.<br>
<br>
Once compacted, but still moist, treat the surface with a fatty acid - oil, <br>
forming a layer of Water insoluble soap ( grease)...(interesting, one <br>
makes water insoluble yellow wheel bearing grease by adding oils to a lime <br>
water solution, at warm temperatures---just like the bath tub ring is formed.).<br>
<br>
Happy New Year to all...<br>
<br>
<br>
Harry Francis<br>
<br>
.<br>
<br>
In a message dated 1/6/2012 12:23:38 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, <br>
<a href="mailto:bill%40caneloproject.com">bill@caneloproject.com</a> writes:<br>
<br>
On Jan 5, 2012, at 6:31 PM, RT wrote:<br>
<br>
Actually he wrote a whole lot of things that I will try to keep short. And <br>
given the nature of my response to Rob Tom's comments, I'll change the <br>
thread to that of earth floor generalities.<br>
And thanks Bruce for waking us up. Just for clarity what I've written is <br>
not in defense of earthen floors nor in the interest of promoting them, but <br>
rather one of clearing up what I would consider to be misconceptions.<br>
<br>
The first of Rob's comments had to deal with soil borne illnesses. Without <br>
research I suspect the list is long. In our part of the world, one of the <br>
most common is Valley Fever that results from fungal particles in the soil. <br>
Come through the lungs via respiration. Don't know a whole lot more about <br>
others, but I suspect that moisture and poor hygiene would have a lot to do <br>
with the hookworms. As we all know moisture is often the culprit in many <br>
problematic situations, in this circle, one of the main causes of insect <br>
infestations in straw bale walls - as often pointed out by the illustrious <br>
Robbie Tom.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Me ? Despite Beel's best efforts, I never really became a big fan of <br>
earthen floors for my locale.<br>
<br>
God forbid, you would be the last guy I would try to convince on anything, <br>
much less make a fan out of. Hah! But I will pay you a compliment in <br>
saying that from all the lists that I've been a part of with you, I've learned a <br>
whole hell of a lot. Initially I was trying to address the need for <br>
concrete, but since he has widened the discussion below, I'll take the bait and <br>
go with it. He's good at that.<br>
> <br>
> One :<br>
> <br>
> Earthen floors make a lot of sense in places the climate is such that <br>
earth-coupling is a reasonable proposition. That is not the case in most, if <br>
not all of Canada.<br>
> <br>
> In order to use an earthen floor in this climate, it would be necessary <br>
to de-couple it from the earth with at least R-20 worth of insulation <br>
(assuming that the floor is at or near grade)<br>
> <br>
> It would also be necessary to provide an effective strategy to prevent <br>
soil-gas intrusion into the indoor air environment, something that is less <br>
of a concern in climates where air-tight construction/super-insulation is <br>
not essential.<br>
> <br>
> The above almost relegate earthen floors to being not much more than a <br>
cosmetic veneer to provide a pastiche of "natural" earth-connectedness.<br>
<br>
I will take advantage of Robbie's comments to clarify a few things here, <br>
certainly I would not try to argue with the guy.<br>
Any floors that we've been involved with have been de-coupled from the <br>
earth at least as far as I understand the concept and the term.<br>
Typically we install a substrate that drains moisture/water away from the <br>
floor, most often stone/gravel. No objection here to a poly liner if needed <br>
or whatever.<br>
Insulation we always use.<br>
Soil-gas? Never had to deal with it, but I would assume that one would <br>
incorporate the same measures that one would with a concrete slab.<br>
So therefore we are talking about something more than a veneer.<br>
<br>
When it comes to earth coupled floors in the traditional sense, I have <br>
more experience with them than the average person. I frequent a little adobe <br>
home in northern Mexico where a couple in their 70s live. The house is <br>
immaculate, the floors, by their choice, but by poverty is only lightly <br>
compacted dirt that is maintained by sprinkling with water and sweeping. Perhaps a <br>
little addition of dirt every now and then. It's a lovely experience, the <br>
little bit of moisture on the floor creates fabulous ambiance during the hot <br>
summer. And of course, this is a context specific application that would <br>
be of little use in Ontario. I'm sure they don't have hookworms either. In <br>
essence, what I want to say is that the variables are many in this case and <br>
generalizing doesn't yield much in the way of useful information.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Two:<br>
> I was stunned by the volume of oil that Beel told me was needed to <br>
adequately "condition" soil mixes to rendered them serviceable as finished <br>
surfaces (by Auntie Septic's North American standards of performance). I <br>
remember my Mom telling me that back in Olde China where human labour was cheap, <br>
the floor guys simply pounded the $#!+ out of the earth to compact it and <br>
called it a floor.<br>
<br>
Thinking back, I suspect that my comments may have been somewhat <br>
exaggerated, most likely to irritate old Robbie. I've thought a great deal about the <br>
oils and earthen floors these days and am re-thinking a lot of earlier <br>
assumptions. Only thing I'm missing or lacking is a whole bunch of testing, <br>
but at the moment I'm having much more fun in Mexico, that place where most <br>
are terrified to go these days. However, I did coax Greg McMillan, one of <br>
CA's original straw bale souls down there last month. But back to oils for <br>
the moment. As for the amount, instead of progressively thinned application <br>
of linseed oil, it may well be that one full strength coat may be sufficient <br>
in most applications. Or a tad bit more. As for the type of oil, we've <br>
never used or promoted chemical laden boiled linseed oil, I think we've beat <br>
that discussion to death by now. However, some pretty loose testing on my <br>
part suggests that almost any average grade cooking oil may be good enough <br>
for a lot of applications. For now, we can avoid any discussion about the <br>
downside of GMO modified corn oil. Let's just say there are options.<br>
<br>
As far as Robbie's mom and pounded floor, it's quite true, but there are <br>
often subtle variations. The kind of floor he describes is common all over <br>
the world. The one I described in Mexico is that way, but clearly not suited <br>
for most modern houses. In Japan, such a floor is referred to as a <br>
"Tataki" floor, which essentially means "pounded" The trick with making those <br>
floors work however, is the addition of a small amount of lime and "nigari" or <br>
"magnesium chloride" that is commonly a by-product of salt production and a <br>
key ingredient in the making of tofu.<br>
> <br>
> I found Beel's revelation to be disturbing given the horror stories <br>
about woodworkers' linseed-oil-soaked finishing rags spontaneously combusting <br>
... not to mention the potential for long-term pollution of interiors due to <br>
the plentiful VOCs that such large volumes of oil would necessarily <br>
generate. Again, not so much of an issue in warmer climes where high air change <br>
rates would be okay.<br>
<br>
Again, I think like traditional earth floors, we've pounded this <br>
sufficiently. We've always used raw linseed oil that we sun-thicken so it dries more <br>
quickly. As far as I have been able to detect, msds sheets included, <br>
conversations with producers, that oil contains no voc compounds. I'm certainly <br>
open to the possibility that I've missed something in my investigations, <br>
perhaps, but it's not obvious at first glance. I can tell you one thing, <br>
boiled linseed oil has very offensive odors, raw linseed oil nothing I can <br>
detect, doesn't smell much different than food-grade flaxseed oil in the health <br>
food stores. Probably the significant difference between the two would be <br>
whether or not the oil is organically produced and the method which is <br>
used. I will admit that citrus thinner that we've used for a while has in <br>
recent years become suspect and isn't always considered as desirable as once <br>
thought. I will say though that in floors that we've been a part of, lingering <br>
odors ha ve never been a problem.<br>
> <br>
> Three:<br>
> <br>
> Drying of the oil treatment. I've found that when treating timbers with <br>
linseed oil, it is best done during the heat of summer with the timbers <br>
outside in full sun and exposed to breezes. To do otherwise either results in <br>
insufficient depth of penetration of oil (ie not enough oil applied to do <br>
much good) ... or incomplete polymerisation of the oil resulting in a <br>
surface that remains tacky and prone to bleeding for a long, long time ... and <br>
over that period, being a magnet for air-borne crud and subsequent microbial <br>
activity within the accumulated crud -- not the stuff of healthy interiors, <br>
besides looking like hell.<br>
<br>
Agreed, that is why we've always recommend applying to the oil to floors <br>
that are sufficiently warm and with oil that has been warmed.<br>
> <br>
> But one then wonders, why not forget about trying to make the earthen <br>
floor a finished surface and thereby forego all of the sometimes-nasty <br>
stabilisers and simply use the earthen floor as a substrate for a baked-hard <br>
earthen mix (ie clay tile) or stone ?<br>
<br>
First of all we've always recommended earthen floor substrates for the <br>
finished earthen floor surface that we are really discussing here. In our <br>
efforts over the years, especially in Mexico we've tried just about everything <br>
imaginable over earthen mix substrates. As I pointed out yesterday, <br>
broken-up pieces of concrete slabs of various thicknesses we've used. Clay tiles, <br>
we haven't but I know they'd work and have been used traditionally that way <br>
forever. I live on baked clay tiles and love them. We've done very thin <br>
concrete pours over well-compacted earth, have performed admirably without the <br>
usual 3 inch or more thickness. We've made the equivalent of clay tiles <br>
out of cement and sand - worked quite well. Stone when available. And just <br>
for those playing around in Haiti and elsewhere, we've never done them in <br>
low-cost housing for people of little resources mainly because we thought it <br>
an inappropriate choice mostly due to durability issues.<br>
<br>
But perhaps the most significant thing I want to say other than to dispel <br>
some of the myths above is that I'm certainly not taking the position of <br>
promoting these kinds of floors. I think that there is a place for them and <br>
for people who appreciate them for what they are. We can discuss the <br>
technical aspects forever, but I think there is another side to this discussion <br>
which is mostly intangible. There is a different quality to clay that makes <br>
it distinct from concrete, plastics and the like. I'm not against concrete, <br>
rather in favor of sensible use of it. Clay has a very different feel and <br>
energy to it. Let me take one example to illustrate this. Recently we were <br>
called to Ft Huachuca, the military base near us to consult on building some <br>
adobe buildings. They wanted to do research on them and needed them <br>
similar to those built in Afghanistan. The reason was that the technology they <br>
had developed which allowed them to see through any kinds of walls - <br>
concrete, cemen t stabilized earthen mixes, wood, what-have-you, could not see <br>
through adobe or earthen walls. Now you can do what you want with that <br>
observation, but it does point out a significant difference. Me? I'll take it down <br>
the mystical road if you like.<br>
<br>
The other thought I leave you with is from my Native American <br>
mother-in-law (architect mind you), who several years ago built an insulated adobe home <br>
in northern New Mexico. After having grown-up on earth floors in Santa <br>
Clara Pueblo and in a passive solar adobe in Santa Fe, she decided to go with <br>
concrete in her new home. She loves the house, it's beautiful and tasteful, <br>
written up in my blog, New Mexico magazine and Lloyd Kahn's new book "Tiny <br>
Homes." There is one thing that she regrets with her new home and that is <br>
the concrete floor. From her perspective (subjective mind you) is that the <br>
concrete is much harder on her feet and legs and in general, more <br>
uncomfortable. I realize this is a subjective area, but I would also argue that <br>
there is a significant difference between the two. <br>
<br>
And that's way more than enough, for me, that's about a year's worth on <br>
this list. Back to translating a Mexican cookbook.<br>
<br>
Bill Steen<br>
<a href="mailto:_bill%40caneloproject.com">_bill@caneloproject.com</a>_ (mailto:<a href="mailto:bill%40caneloproject.com">bill@caneloproject.com</a>) <br>
<a href="http://www.caneloproject.com">www.caneloproject.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.caneloproject.com/blog">www.caneloproject.com/blog</a><br>
HC1 Box 324<br>
Elgin, AZ85611<br>
<br>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
<br>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
<br>
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