[GSBN] prefab strawbale

Wed Oct 14 18:31:33 UTC 2009

Hi Andy, 

Sorry for the very late reply, I am not checking this mail as often as I should.
We always have some scrap plastic that we have saved from some packaging during construction, a lot of materials unfortunately end up delivered on site with plastic wrap around them. It is some work to cover windows and doors, but since we are in the opposite situation where labor is expensive it easily pays of. 
The plaster penetrates the bales very well, fare better then any of us could do by hand. Dipping them may give some of the same result, though with this high pressure airspray, the larger aggregates also get in to the straw, and as a result, really brings additional stiffening to the wall. The last house we did, inspite of having covered the windows, we'd had the airpressure up a bit higher then usually, and a window was punctured.. Not good. This machine is build for the purpose my the contractor Michael Kallesen - famous in Denmark. But in Germany there is a spray machine, sold for any kind of plasterwork, that is not as powerful, but also does the job satisfactory.

Cheers
Caroline

Caroline Meyer White 

Friland 23 
8410 Rønde 
tlf + 45 40 76 1980 

New email which I am changing to: hojtpaastraa at gmail.com 

Kender du: engodsag.dk ? 

Eller paksbab.org ?

--- On Wed, 9/30/09, Andy Horn <andy at ecodesignarchitects.co.za> wrote:

From: Andy Horn <andy at ecodesignarchitects.co.za>
Subject: Re: [GSBN] prefab strawbale
To: "'(private, with public archives) Global Straw Building Network'" <GSBN at greenbuilder.com>
Date: Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 2:03 AM

Hi Caroline 

Thanks, a bit crudely executed by builder,
but was a fun project in a quaint country village Barrydale with client, friends
and community all getting involved.    

Have not worked there yet, but no the .za is
for South Africa .
Based in Cape Town , most of my work is in the
 Western Cape , though ver the country and have done a
little bit of work in Zambia ….though
that was not strawbale. 

We do a lot of work where we are trying to
use more labor on site. Here labor is cheap and we face unemployment issues so I
have looked to find a way of building that cuts out our reliance on machines as
far as practically possible. With plastering we have an established hand
plastering trade so I make use of that. While there are people who use gunite
equipment, this is a very specialized industry that has developed for swimming
pool construction not wall plastering.  

I only know of 1 South African straw bale
project that used gunite techniques. The result looked ok, but not so solid….i.e.
if you tap on the walls they sound hollow, while with the dipping the walls
sound solid. Also was not so fond of the idea of having to tape up all the window
and door frames with plastic creating more waste so as to mask them from
plaster spray. Have you found ways of getting around this? 

Kind regards  

Andy 

From:
GSBN-bounces at greenbuilder.com [mailto:GSBN-bounces at greenbuilder.com] On Behalf Of caroline meyer white

Sent: 19 September 2009 03:02 PM

To: with public archives) Global
Straw Building Network(private

Subject: Re: [GSBN] prefab
strawbale 

  Hi Andy!

  Thanks for the comment and the link, nice building. I've done dipping the
  bales for a project as well. The houses that we mainly build in
 Denmark now,
  are jumbobale loadbearing houses, with NO wood in the walls, and walls
  plaster-sprayed in the first one or sometimes 2 coats, the spraying makes the
  dipping unnessecary. 

  Do you work in Zimbabwe ?
  The .za at the end of the web address?

  Cheer Caroline

  Caroline
  Meyer White 

  Friland 23 

  8410 Rønde 

  tlf + 45 40 76 1980 

  New email which I am changing
  to: hojtpaastraa at gmail.com

  Kender du: engodsag.dk ? 

  Eller paksbab.org ?

  --- On Wed, 9/16/09, Andy Horn <andy at ecodesignarchitects.co.za>
  wrote: 

  From: Andy Horn <andy at ecodesignarchitects.co.za>

  Subject: Re: [GSBN] prefab strawbale

  To: "'(private, with public archives) Global Straw Building
  Network'" <GSBN at greenbuilder.com>

  Date: Wednesday, September 16, 2009, 4:30 AM 

  Hi Caroline 
  A modification of a prefabricated system but which effectively
  cuts out a lot of time with the plastering and is kind of related to “prefab”
  is to look at bale dipping……this involves fitting bales between
  frames and then disassembling the wall sequentially, then dipping the exposed
  surfaces of the bales in a watery mix of earth (yogurt consistency)  and
  working the earth into the straw while laid flat in a bath or trough. The
  bales are then left in the sun to dry until they become are of cob like
  consistency before raising them back into position. You can find some good
  pictures of the system on our web site. Our most recent Straw bale project
  can be found under http://www.ecodesignarchitects.co.za/eco/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=44&g2_itemId=2406 

  I have found this to be a highly effective way of building that
  combines some of the advantages of the pre-fab systems (ease of applying
  initial plaster coat) with the advantages of onsite assembly. While it does
  not save on timber, it does not need heavy duty machinery to erect with
  cranes etc and generally having a frame in place is easier for municipalities
  and conventional builders to get their heads around. I have been using this
  system for about 5 or 6 years now. 

  Kind regards  

  Andy Horn 

  ECO DESIGN - Architects & Consultants 
  6th Floor, 79
    Roeland St . 

Cape Town, 8001 

South Africa 
  Tel: 0721 4621614 Fax: 07 21 461 3198 
  www.ecodesignarchitects.co.za 

  From: GSBN-bounces at greenbuilder.com
  [mailto:GSBN-bounces at greenbuilder.com] On
  Behalf Of caroline meyer white

  Sent: 14 September 2009 12:44 PM

  To: with public archives) Global
  Straw Building Network(private

  Subject: Re: [GSBN] prefab
  strawbale 

    Hi
    Derek,  

    Thanks
    for your reply. 

    What
    I, in an affaul lot of words, is trying to say, is that I think
    we need prefab elements, be it Modcell or any other. And I personally think
    that if e.g. what we would consider a large amount of wood in the frame or
    some other sort of compromise, is what you have to do, to make it easy for
    a conventional contracter to choose your panel, then I can live with that
    compromise. Because the general carbon footprint, or which ever method we
    choose to measure with, will still be fare better then any other mainstream
    alternative that I at least know of. 

    So
    my inquirries were mainly to say that I don't think it is right to compare
    these panels - be it Modcell or any other, with loadbearing balehouses,
    because they have the potentiel to reach a market that we unfortunately
    don't seem to be able to reach with the more specific balehouse techniques. 

    Secondly
    some of the discussion on the list seemed to not take in the information
    actually given on Modcells website. Such as the local assembling of the
    panels - Of course on site assembling is great, but if the panels are
    assembled at the barn where the straw is sitting anyway, there isn't really
    any additional transportation involved. 

    They
    have the "lite" panels, where the frame is 50 mm but with 2
    I-beam wooden posts inside the panel, a light osb I-beam I think. That
    helps a bit on the amount of wood and I am curios why the are not all done
    like that. 

    My
    curiosity in this prefab thing has leed me to having just arrived in
 Bath  to
    do my 5th semester engineering internship, I will be following a
    research project on the Balehouse, where some of all of these issues will
    be adressed. When I first saw the panels I had all the same reservations as
    expressed on this list, and I still do! I am very keen to get a look at the
    need for that heavy wood frame, to find a design where local wood can be
    used, to encourage testing and considering earthern plasters in locations
    where that will be sufficient. To find better ways of assembling the
    panels etc.  

    So
    I am all with you, and in the end, we are a few people hoping to set up
    something as appropriate as can be, in Denmark. So I was very excited about
    the discussion on the list, and a bit dissapointed that it kept coming back
    to this comparison of systems that don't do the same.. I like the lighter
    versions of panels that Chris talked about, I just find it important to
    have the whole specter and accept that oned of it, which will be most
    "normal" may need compromises. 

    I
    think it is as Bruce mentioned earlier, that these guys are really open to
    suggestions, and still ongoing with lots of testing. Any good suggestions
    that are shared I am sure will be taken in account. I am told that the
    engineers involved are very conservative (not a surprice), and probably
    some convincing strength on bales could be really helpfull, in order to
    help them to calculate the bales into the system. 

    When
    there is more to share from over here I will be very happy to do so. And I
    am obviously keen to get more details on the other pre fab systems that you
    or anybody else knows about. 

    Cheers

    Caroline  

    Kender du: engodsag.dk ? 

    Eller paksbab.org ?

    --- On Fri, 9/11/09, Derek Roff <derek at unm.edu>
    wrote: 

    From: Derek Roff <derek at unm.edu>

    Subject: Re: [GSBN] prefab strawbale

    To: "Global Straw 
     Building 
    Network" <GSBN at greenbuilder.com>

    Date: Friday, September 11, 2009, 3:58 PM 

    Thanks
    for your comments, Caroline.  I am very interested in strawbale 

    panels, and in finding ways to increase the use of bales in all kinds 

    of construction.  I agree with you, that we will need to find more 

    industrial bale building methods, if we are to interest certain 

    segments of the building industry.

    A different question is comparing the specific Modcell prefab panel 

    method/technology/approach to what other companies are doing, using 

    different prefab panel methods.  I've seen buildings and building 

    methods using factory assembled stawbale panels that I like better. 
    Of 

    course, what I have seen and read cannot equate to a rigorous, 

    scientific comparison, but I think that there are prefab panel 

    approaches in use in Switzerland 
    , Austria ,
 Canada ,
    and probably other 

    places, that look more promising to me than Modcell.

    Caroline, are you saying that you think Modcell is the best prefab 

    method available, or that we need an industrial prefab method, such as 

    Modcell or something like it?

    Best wishes,

    Derek

    --On Friday, September 11, 2009 9:27 AM -0700 caroline meyer white 

    <fredmeyer8 at yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    > Dear All,

    >

    > Knowing that I am very late in this respons, I feel like I should

    > make it anyway.

    > In Denmark 
    for some time, we have had an ungoing discussion on, how

    > to make strawbale construction breaking through. Because, there is no

    > doubt, the load bearing houses, build in lovely parties,

    > strenghtening community etc, well you can't do better then that, when

    > you want to see environment and livelyhoods flourish.

    > But how much of the market do we reach? I am affraid that I have lost

    > the belief in, that we will get to have a very big market share using

    > the different bale techniques that are out there. At least in

    > Denmark 
    , no construction worker - be it trained in carpentry, masonry

    > or simular trades touch bale construction. It is to fare from what

    > they have learned. And then not to talk about more industrialized

    > buildings, not just thinking of residential homes.

    >

    > SO..I think Modcell is the best suggestion out there to break the

    > market. We have the absolutely more appropriate solutions for the

    > people who will engage them selves in building their homes, be it in

    > Europe/US or any where on the planet, where you always build your

    > home your self. But if we want to change some carbon footprint, it's

    > the heavy guys we need to reach, and then be there a lot of wood in

    > the structure or not. - With the Modcell nobody needs to care about

    > that it's straw thats inside it, once it reaches the building site.

    > And that may be what makes it duable for the conventional market. -

    > Allowing straw to become an insulation material like any other, not a

    > hippie-style of construction, which is the impression that any

    > conventional builder has about the way I have at least build all my

    > houses.

    >

    > Considering the transportation, I just want to mention, if you

    > haden't seen on the web site, that they construct the panels always

    > in a local barn, so transportation is never more then a few miles

    > with the completed panels and only the woodframes are coming in from

    > a fare.

    >

    > So having defended this, I agree that their may be ways of

    > improvement, which Modcell themselves are working on as well. My

    > point is just, that this alternative potentially can reach a market

    > that we (being all us balers) can't reach. And which may in the end

    > have a very large impact on our beautiful planet.

    >

    > All the best

    > Caroline

    >

    >

    >

    >

    >

    >

    >

    >

    >

    >

    >

    >

    >

    >

    > From: Brian <brian at anvill.com.au>

    > Subject: Re: [GSBN] prefab strawbale

    > To: "'(private, with public archives) Global Straw Building
    Network'"

    > <GSBN at greenbuilder.com>

    > Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 5:24 PM

    >

    >

    > Hi All,

    > I have been interested in prefab wall panels for some time, but have

    > difficulty finding the appropriate time and skill savings. My son

    > Brad has a

    > render pump that will pump up to 60 square meters an hour at 20mm

    > thick. He

    > works with the owners and their volunteers to keep their costs down.

    > It is

    > often necessary to have two mixers to keep up with the machine, but

    > at 1

    > square meter per minute it is pretty quick.

    >

    > Regards

    >

    > Brian

    > Anvill

    > -----Original Message-----

    > From: GSBN-bounces at greenbuilder.com

    > [mailto:GSBN-bounces at greenbuilder.com]

    > On Behalf Of cmagwood at kos.net

    > Sent: Friday, 31 July 2009 8:40 PM

    > To: private, with public archives) Global Straw Building Networ

    > Subject: Re: [GSBN] prefab strawbale

    >

    > John,

    >

    > Most of the cost and time savings with the prefab panels we're doing

    > come

    > from eliminating the site plastering. The poured walls are done in a

    > single coat, poured "sidewalk style", both sides of the
    panel at one

    > time.

    > There is no way even our best practiced spray crew could do two coats

    > to

    > two sides to a perfect finish in under an hour for an 8ftx8ft panel.

    > Plus,

    > the plaster can be applied in any weather and can cure away from sun,

    > wind

    > and gravity pulling things down the wall.

    >

    > After lots of experiments, we decided not to cast door and windows

    > into

    > the panels. Instead, we panelize the sections of the building between

    > openings, and then frame in the openings once the panels are

    > installed. In

    > the case of the building we just did, those sections don't have any

    > bale

    > in them. Instead, we framed out storage bins/benches at the same

    > width as

    > the bale walls.

    >

    > We include a single stud at the edge of each panel, and the framed

    > sections are attached to these studs. I can send you the plan details

    > if

    > you want. We typically don't meet shaky
 California criteria here in

    > Ontario 
    , but I'm sure the system can be adapted to suit.

    >

    > Chris

    >

    >> That's interesting info, Chris, particularly your construction
    costs.

    >> Maybe

    >> we should try something like that!

    >>

    >> I'm not clear how, with a module that's pre-plastered, you tie

    >> modules together and make them weather-tight as well as
    structurally

    >> sound (don't forget, our ground shakes violently now and then).

    >>

    >> It seems that your 'poured' walls are simple and easy for
    unskilled

    >> builders.   What would be the difference if you
    installed pre-fab

    >> walls w/o

    >> plaster, and a professional crew did the plastering as normally
    done?

    >>

    >> John "Beyond Fab" Swearingen

    >>

    >

    > _______________________________________________

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    >

    >

    > _______________________________________________

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    Derek Roff

 Language
 Learning Center

    Ortega Hall 129, MSC03-2100

 University of
 New Mexico

 Albuquerque ,
 NM 87131-0001

    505/277-7368, fax 505/277-3885

    Internet: derek at unm.edu

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