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<p>Hi Enga, and all who've waded into this fascinating discussion...</p>
<p>I'm really glad to be reading this thread, there's a lot of rich
questions and ideas here, and I think there's a lot of value in
exploring them. Perhaps this discussion can be a central part of
an upcoming Int'l Straw Bale gathering? I would love to have that
kind of extended opportunity to talk about these things.</p>
<p>But I have some thoughts that I'd like to get out there in this
forum, as a response to what I've read so far. This stuff is
highly relevant to my own practice lately, and I'm churning this
stuff over in my mind a lot.</p>
<p>I found myself came in this field of endeavour as an
owner-builder, attracted by the apparent simplicity of bale
building and all the other great benefits that the renaissance
pioneers (many of whom are on this list!) brought to our
attention. Having lived through making all the obvious mistakes I
made on my first house, I got really passionate about figuring out
how to do straw bale building better to save others from the same
mistakes. Thus began a couple of decades of building and
research...</p>
<p>Along the way, all kinds of things happened that have informed
and re-directed my efforts and energies. I'm going to point-form
these to keep this message shorter:</p>
<ul>
<li><b>Issues with exterior plaster finishes</b> (in particular in
a region with little to no plaster experience, and a cold, wet
climate and citizens who are used to "maintenance-free" brick
and vinyl cladding). All of the really serious mistakes/failures
with bale buildings in this part of the world are due to issues
with plaster and plaster detailing. The cost of plaster
finishes, whether in time for owner/builders or cost for those
doing the work professionally is also highly relevant.</li>
<li><b>Issues with code.</b> Though we all know that load-bearing
buildings can and do work, and can even get permits (we've done
over a dozen here), in this part of the world it requires a
structural engineer to stick her/his neck out to approve this,
and this costs owners a lot of money and inevitably slows down
permit times. There are also many who simply can't find an
engineer willing/able to do this for them.</li>
<li><b>Issues with building process/weather.</b> Ontario has a
fairly short building season, and one during which it can rain
suddenly and heavily on any given day. I often wonder if the
number of poly tarps sacrificed to keep bale walls dry in this
part of the world outweighs all the environmental plusses... I'm
sure the answer is no, but the amount of time spent tarping and
untarping and the costs in time and labour (and tarpage) is
significant, and the reason that many builders have pursued wood
frame options to enable a roof to go overhead before bales go
in. We also can't plaster exteriors here for 6 months of the
year due to freezing conditions, which also provides challenges
aplenty.<br>
</li>
<li><b>Issues with energy efficiency.</b> Seems crazy to think,
but our R-30 (ish) bale walls that were outstandingly energy
efficient 20 years ago are only just going to meet code minimum
requirements here in Canada within a couple of years. While a
bale house was remarkably energy efficient back then, we
cold-climate inhabitants have learned that if we want to be
serious about reducing energy use, it takes something more than
a standard bale wall to get there. Net zero homes are a good
idea, and we can't do that very effectively with a typical bale
wall in our climate. There are also issues around getting
plastered bale buildings to be airtight enough to be truly
energy efficient... many crews have figured this out, but it's
not straightforward or simple.<br>
</li>
<li><b>Issues with "replicability."</b> Though many professional
bale builders have been able to develop systems and crews that
allow them to compete with conventional builders, it's clear by
now that straw bale building isn't going to take the mainstream
building world by storm. That in itself isn't a bad thing...
bale building can fill an important niche for both professionals
and owner-builders. But for those who want more buildings to
have the improved ecological and carbon footprint that comes
naturally with bale buildings, it is something of a conundrum...
how do we achieve this if straw bales are not the go-to solution
for 99.9% of builders?<br>
</li>
<li><b>Carbon positive building.</b> One of the great things about
bale buildings is that they can store a whack of biogenic
carbon, and can even contribute to "carbon positive" buildings
that store more carbon than was emitted in making them. But not
all bale buildings do this... I've certainly seen bale buildings
with enough concrete, steel, lime, glass and other high
emissions materials to negate the carbon positivity of the bale
walls. And for those concerned with carbon positive building,
there are other ways to make a carbon positive building using
other materials, and getting the same result for the planet
without using bales.</li>
<li><i>***It doesn't elude me that all of these issues are
definitely "first world problems!" The humble load-bearing
bale building only faces these issues when trying to compete
with conventional options. If we can change people's
expectations of what a house should be, this whole discussion
would be a lot less central...</i><br>
</li>
</ul>
<p>My efforts in the field of prefab straw bale walls have all been
attempts to address these key issues and still use the material I
love so much. Prefab panels have allowed us to use the simplicity
of load-bearing design without facing the weather issues of
plastering outside, and also simplifying the plastering process so
that it is much, much less time consuming, fussy and skilled a
task (because it's done with the panel lying down flat... working
with gravity!). Though it hasn't been done very often, I see these
kind of panels as highly appropriate for owner builders who can
build them in place on their floor deck, and get them built,
plastered and stood up in an easy, manageable process, without
needing lots of volunteers and being able to adequately protect
one or two panels from inclement weather quite easily. Those who
have done this have really benefited from the technique, and are
among the best owner-built homes I've ever seen, and certainly the
quickest, most affordable and painless (and, dare I say,
straightest). These plastered prefab walls help address code
issues (engineers seem happier if they know the plaster is a
consistent thickness, provides a straight load path, and won't
delaminate between coats), and offer a path to replicability that
is much more direct than with site built bales. The plaster finish
is also straight enough that mounting a rain screen cladding where
appropriate is suddenly very simple to do. For all of these
reasons (and more), I've been really happy with our plastered
prefab panels, and continue to advocate for them.</p>
<p>However, the plastered panels are still limited in regards to
their energy efficiency, and the weight involved in making a
pre-plastered panel. Our most recent versions of "dry" panels are
an attempt to address all the above issues. By using insulated
sheathing (wood fiber board, which is as eco-friendly as a
manufactured material can get and more vapour permeable than
earthen plaster) we up our energy efficiency an important notch,
and simplify air sealing details greatly. The labour time for
making panels is reduced significantly by eliminating the plaster.
And by adding the wood fiber board, we're storing more biogenic
carbon (even earthen plaster doesn't do that!).</p>
<p>Do our weird boxes stuffed with bales seem a long way off from my
beginnings as a bale builder? Yup indeed. But do they satisfy all
of the things that are important to me as a builder? Yup, they do.
We can even use clay plaster on the interior (haven't yet, but
hope to soon!).</p>
<p>So that's one way (a little long-winded... sorry!) to keep using
straw bales and to address all the issues that have proven
difficult for our practice here in Ontario. We've experimented
with others (like using round bales as load-bearing columns, and
using jumbo bales), but none have had the simplicity and elegance
of the "dry" panel.</p>
<p>I have certainly seen some potential solutions to straw bale
problems that are less than elegant, and at that point I do think
it is worthwhile asking if bales are the right material to be
using. The second I see anybody sawing, channeling or notching a
bale, I immediately wonder if this is an appropriate strategy. Why
not cellulose, another carbon-storing, recycled material that
fills any void perfectly? Why not hempcrete or straw/clay, also
great at filling framing cavities? Why not an exterior or interior
frame of some kind that won't interface with the bales? These are
all important questions to ask, and I think it's important that as
practitioners we are open to asking them and to arriving at an
answer that is not straw bale.</p>
<p>I also think that we could collectively be thinking about new
ways to use the amazing straw resources we have. Can we shred
straw and use it like cellulose? Can we make stacking,
interlocking bales? Can we make bales that fit into standard
framing dimensions without any on-site carving? Can bales come
with a base coat of plaster on the exterior and interior so they
can be dry-stacked, easily cut, and be weather protected? These
possibilities, and many more, exist for us to explore (and there
are those out there doing these things right now... let's learn
from them and support them!). After all, from a climate
perspective, we grow enough cereal grains every year that the
straw absorbs twice as much carbon as is emitted by all human
transportation! Turns out those little stalks are the most
effective carbon capture and storage machines ever invented. And
we've all been doing the right thing by bundling some if it up and
putting it in houses for a long time. If we can figure out ways to
make it easy for people to do more of that - even if it doesn't
match our preconceived notions of a "straw bale house." <br>
</p>
<p>I think these are the issues/questions that underlie this
discussion, and I for one am keen to engage with others on
figuring out solutions!</p>
<p>Whew, that was long-winded. Thanks to anybody who read this far!</p>
<p>Chris<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2018-05-15 9:02 PM, Enga Lokey
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:ADDB66BD-EE89-4816-9866-DC6562C8145F@thelokeys.net">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<br class="">
Hello you amazing builders/designers,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">At the risk of being chucked off the list for this
question, I would like to play devil’s advocate here and ask
what is being achieved by the use of strawbales in the methods
discussed below and others that seem to be the direction that
strawbale is moving (i.e. building wrap, 2x6 framing on 24in
centers, external timber sheathing, etc). More specifically, it
appears that the building methods are being adjusted toward a
more standard construction to the point of wondering why the
strawbale is even still used? There are other cellulose based
products and other more natural or healthy insulation products
on the market. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We are all aware of the challenges of working with
straw and thus there needs to be, in balance, a greater benefit
in order to justify. Is that benefit still there when used in
this way? Are we not using equal/more other materials in order
to build with straw in these methods? Is it justified? </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">And as the saying goes, "just because I am confused
does not mean you are incorrect."</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Cheers,</div>
<div class="">Enga</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
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-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; ">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; " class=""><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:
separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing:
0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "
class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><a href="mailto:enga@thelokeys.net"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">enga@thelokeys.net</a></div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
</span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On 15 May 2018, at 9:21 pm, Rene Dalmeijer
<<a href="mailto:rdalmeij@mac.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rdalmeij@mac.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="">Doug,<br class="">
<br class="">
I did a pre-fab 5 story SB build akin to the system used
by David in 2007. The difference being we used Fermacell
with breathable housewrap on the outside clad with open
horizontal larch cladding. This has been performing very
well even though there have been some leeks due to
caulking problems in the window frames, No mushy bales.<br
class="">
<br class="">
This has become my preferred Pre-fab SB method. Although
I am now involved in a pre-fab build without any earth
plaster on the bales at all, shudder! The bales will
vertically stacked in prefab elements with underlayment
inner and outer skins with wooden vertical slab siding.<br
class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Rene Dalmeijer Proces Advies<br class="">
Thomas Hoodstraat 2<br class="">
1086 WE Amsterdam<br class="">
<br class="">
06 48955419<br class="">
<br class="">
KvK 34243755<br class="">
BTW NL057444146B01<br class="">
NL18ASNB0932817343 <br class="">
new email <a href="mailto:rdalmeij@mac.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rdalmeij@mac.com</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
IBAN NL09INGB0004388720<br class="">
BIC INGBNL2A<br class="">
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On May14, 2018, at
18:42, David Arkin, AIA <<a
href="mailto:david@arkintilt.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">david@arkintilt.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
Hello Doug:<br class="">
<br class="">
We completed a recent project using a ‘Hybrid Wall
System’, employing typical 2x6 studs at 24” on center
with plywood sheathing (note - plywood, not OSB - but
in a non-seismic zone wood fiberboard or similar may
suffice), and then installed the bales as insulation
on-end between the studs, using clay plaster on the
interior and a typical weather-barrier and cladding
finish on the exterior. Attached is an illustration
of the system, and here are links to the workshop and
the finished building, a 34,000 mixed use office and
warehouse in Eugene, Oregon. <br class="">
<br class="">
<a
href="http://www.arkintilt.com/ata-helps-host-casba-hybrid-straw-bale-workshop-our-mahonia-building-eugene-oregon"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.arkintilt.com/ata-helps-host-casba-hybrid-straw-bale-workshop-our-mahonia-building-eugene-oregon</a>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<a
href="http://www.arkintilt.com/salvaged-materials-mahonia"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.arkintilt.com/salvaged-materials-mahonia</a><br
class="">
<br class="">
Also attached is a picture of the wall under
construction. We used 3-string rye bales and held
them tight to the plywood with 4” wide strips of 1/2”
plywood, and 12” Timber-Hex screws into the studs
(we'll use 14” screws next time - easier to find the
studs, and a better connection). <br class="">
<br class="">
I also have the WUFI analysis our building efficiency
consultant ran for various locations - they can run a
weather file specific to Wilmington if you wish. LMK.<br
class="">
<br class="">
This is not quite a ‘StrawCell’ as it doesn’t feature
cellulose, but it could be appropriate to Delaware. <br
class="">
<br class="">
Looks like a great project, <br class="">
<br class="">
David / ATA & CASBA<br class="">
<br class="">
<2017-0224 YW2 bale corner detail2.jpg><br
class="">
<IMG_9936.JPG><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">On May 14, 2018, at
8:47 AM, Chris Magwood
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:chris@endeavourcentre.org"><chris@endeavourcentre.org></a> wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
Hi Doug,<br class="">
<br class="">
Here's a detail from our last straw-cell project.
Hope it's helpful to you. You can contact me off
list if you want to discuss it.<br class="">
<br class="">
Cheers,<br class="">
<br class="">
Chris<br class="">
<br class="">
On 2018-05-14 11:03 AM, douglas nichols wrote:<br
class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">Hello All<br
class="">
<br class="">
I'm consulting with a non-profit
(<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.yinnovations.org/">http://www.yinnovations.org/</a>) to build an
affordable straw home for a low income family.
Their current engineering was provided by someone
unfamiliar with straw bale building and is coming
up pretty short of being a low carbon,
sustainable, or natural design. So we are moving
to a straw cell design to help ease any
engineering and building official concerns about
the straw bale part. My question is-- does anyone
have a good straw cell wall detail drawing they
can point me to or donate to the effort?<br
class="">
<br class="">
Y Innovations, Inc.<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.yinnovations.org">www.yinnovations.org</a><br class="">
2903 North Jefferson Street 2903 North Jefferson
Street is a 4500 square foot vacant lot in the
city of Wilmington, where Y Innovations will be
completing a 630 square foot naturally-built straw
bale home in 2018.<br class="">
Thanks<br class="">
<br class="">
Doug Nichols<br class="">
<br class="">
Creating Energy Efficient Homes Since 1995<br
class="">
<br class="">
Nichols Contracting LLC<br class="">
821 S. 400 E.<br class="">
Moab, Utah 84532<br class="">
Cell #970.683.1517<br class="">
Lic. #9508518-5501<br class="">
<br class="">
Principal / Qualifying Builder <br class="">
Community Rebuilds Moab --
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.communityrebuilds.org/">http://www.communityrebuilds.org/</a><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
_______________________________________________<br
class="">
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</blockquote>
<br class="">
-- <br class="">
Chris Magwood<br class="">
Director, Endeavour Centre<br class="">
<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.endeavourcentre.org">www.endeavourcentre.org</a><br class="">
<Screen Shot 2018-05-14 at 11.29.45
AM.png>_______________________________________________<br
class="">
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<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
* * * * *<br class="">
Arkin Tilt Architects<br class="">
Ecological Planning & Design<br class="">
1101 8th St. #180, Berkeley, CA 94710<br class="">
510/528-9830 ext. 2#<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.arkintilt.com">www.arkintilt.com</a><br class="">
<br class="">
David Arkin, AIA, Architect<br class="">
LEED Accredited Professional<br class="">
CA #C22459/NV #5030<br class="">
<br class="">
Director, California Straw Building Association<br
class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.strawbuilding.org">www.strawbuilding.org</a><br class="">
CASBA is a project of the Tides Center<br class="">
<br class="">
"There is no way to peace. Peace is the way."<br
class="">
— A. J. Muste <br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
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class="">
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</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Chris Magwood
Director, Endeavour Centre
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.endeavourcentre.org">www.endeavourcentre.org</a></pre>
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