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<p>It's not a cure-all by any means, but the silicate paints from
Canadian-based Perma-Tint (used to be Eco-House) have worked
extremely well for us:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://permatint.com/brick-staining-products/">http://permatint.com/brick-staining-products/</a>. <br>
</p>
<p>However, it's important to note that even a well-painted (or
rainscreened) bale wall is still susceptible to rain penetration
at the top of the wall and around all window/door framing. In
every moisture issue I've ever been asked to inspect, the bulk of
the water entering the wall is coming from a junction where
plaster simply bumps into wood or a window frame. It's astounding
how much water can enter a 1/16 reveal-crack in a driving
rainstorm...</p>
<p>Chris</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2017-04-07 5:05 AM, Feile Butler
wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div><font size="2">Hi All</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">Throwing my tuppence into the mix from the
Emerald Isle - famously green due to our impressive levels of
rain.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">While you may succeed in drying out the walls,
the weather will keep on doing what it does ... and with
climate change, it will only get worse. We are definitely
noticing an increase in frequency/intensity of winter storms
and in wetter summers here (oh joy!). </font><font size="2">In
our practice, we never specify lime applied directly on to
bales. It just cannot cope with the external moisture loads
inflicted on it. There are too many stories of rotting bale
walls in Ireland. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">While there has been some discussion that the
moisture levels recorded in these bales are not over
concerning (yet), the fact that there is an appalling smell is
a pretty good indicator that all is not well (as long as other
sources have been ruled out).</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">Martin mentioned the building paper and that
we don't know what it is. We have heard reports of buildings
where the construction moisture levels were so high, that
micro-porous breather membranes were overwhelmed by the amount
of water vapour trying to pass through as the building dried
out and basically self-sealed .... thereby creating a
situation where moisture became trapped in the building - not
good. This has been reported a few times for roof
construction, not for walls. But there is no reason why it
might not be happening in walls - it is just much more obvious
when you are sitting in an attic space and drips are rolling
off the membrane. So when we can, we specify cellular
membranes like Intello - which act by osmosis (and can reverse
direction of vapour flow depending on vapour pressure loadings
internally and externally), rather than the micro-porous
membranes.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">I would recommend adding a rain screen, as
advised by John and others. In Ireland, we design to keep the
rain out and then we design another line of defence for when
the rain breaches the first detail ..... and we have to design
for horizontal and even upward driving rain.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">If this building was in Ireland, I would
recommend drying it out by whatever means necessary. If it
means pulling off the lime render, then so be it and I would
then wrap the bales externally with a cellular-based membrane
(if the clients can afford it). </font><font size="2">If they
can dry out the bales without removing the lime, then this
should be adequate as the second line of defence and the
addition of the cellular membrane would not be necessary.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">If they want the appearance of a solid render,
rather than timber boards, then I would fix 50mm vertical
battens to the dried-out bales (covered with lime or with an
appropriate membrane) to form a drainage channel and
ventilation space. Then apply render carrier boards. Ensure
that ventilation is retained at the top and bottom of these
boards. To save money, as there is a ventilated cavity behind,
these can be cement based (i.e.they don't need to be
breathable). Or the client can go full eco if they can afford
it. Install anti-vermin steel mesh at the bottom, but ensure
that the cavity is still ventilated and can drain out. Then
apply lime render to the boards. Use a good multi-direction
mesh where the render boards connect back into the other
elevations.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">If the clients are happy to have vertical
timber boards, I would still install 50mm vertical battens
behind the horizontal battens (fixings for the vertical
boards). Having a clear flowing drainage cavity (uninhibited
by horizontal battens) is key to keeping the rest of the
building dry.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">As the overhang is reasonable, you should not
need to extend the roof, as this detail can take a whole heap
of rain. Only the window reveals and cills will increase. I
recommend a min. 50mm overhang for cills to throw rain off the
wall below.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">Cheers</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">Feile</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2">Feile Butler</font></div>
<div><font size="2"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:feile@mudandwood.com">feile@mudandwood.com</a></font></div>
<div><font size="2"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.mudandwood.com">www.mudandwood.com</a> </font></div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:
5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color:
black"><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mfhammer@pacbell.net"
href="mailto:mfhammer@pacbell.net">Martin Hammer</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="GSBN@SustainableSources.com"
href="mailto:GSBN@SustainableSources.com">GSBN</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 07,
2017 4:58 AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [GSBN] URGENT!
Drying moisture out of SB walls</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hi all,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I agree with Derek that the straw close to the exterior
could have a moisture content significantly higher than the
readings provided. Especially near the bottom of the wall. I
suggest the owners obtain a longer probe or drill holes in at
least a few places in the exterior plaster in the bottom third
of the wall to take readings for the first few inches of
straw. Enough to get a clue about the highest moisture content
of the straw in the walls.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One fact about the wall assembly that hasn’t been mentioned
by the GSBN moisture sleuths is that it has two layers of
building paper between the plaster and the bales. This could
be a benefit (allowing less water that has penetrated the
plaster to reach the straw) or a detriment (inhibiting the
release of moisture in the straw to the outside air, depending
on its vapor permeability). And we don’t know exactly what the
“building paper” is. I imagine that if water penetrated the
plaster, and if the paper was installed properly, almost all
of that water would be stopped by the two layers of paper,
except maybe at fastener penetrations or tears in the paper.
Gravity should then pull the water down and out, but only if
there is sufficient means of safe escape at the bottom of the
paper/plaster.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A four foot overhang is substantial, but apparently not
enough for this exposure/climate. David’s idea of a 10’ porch
overhang certainly is one way to solve the problem. Or an
exterior cladding suggest by Derek and John. Or regarding
water repellent, colleagues in northern California have
claimed success using siloxane over lime or cement-lime
plaster on straw bale walls. It repels water but maintains
good vapor permeability (I don’t know a perm rating). I’m not
sure if has been used successfully over clay paster.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One other thought is regarding the use of heat on the
interior to drive moisture to the exterior. Wouldn’t that pull
the moisture to the drier/warmer interior instead, or do I
have my moisture mechanics backward.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Martin </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><b style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><i><span style="FONT-SIZE:
7.5pt">Martin Hammer, Architect<br>
</span></i></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial;
FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">1348 Hopkins St.<br>
Berkeley, CA 94702</span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">510-525-0525
(office)</span></div>
<div><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt">510-684-4488
(cell)</span></div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; TEXT-ALIGN: left;
BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT:
0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: black;
FONT-SIZE: 10pt; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;
BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From: </span>Gsbn <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:gsbn-bounces@sustainablesources.com">gsbn-bounces@sustainablesources.com</a>>
on behalf of Derek Roff <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:derek@unm.edu">derek@unm.edu</a>><br>
<span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Reply-To: </span>GSBN <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:GSBN@SustainableSources.com">GSBN@SustainableSources.com</a>><br>
<span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Date: </span>Thursday,
April 6, 2017 at 6:18 PM<br>
<span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To: </span>GSBN <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:GSBN@SustainableSources.com">GSBN@SustainableSources.com</a>><br>
<span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject: </span>Re: [GSBN]
URGENT! Drying moisture out of SB walls<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space">I’m concerned that
we don’t have enough data on current moisture levels near
the exterior of the wall. If rain has entered the straw
through the exterior plaster, because of the extreme wind
and rain, the straw might be several percentage points
wetter in the first few inches under the exterior plaster
skin. As I understand the moisture testing done so far,
the readings have been taken from the inside, and the
probe probably never got closer than 6” or further from
the outside plaster. I’m sure that there is a desire to
avoid adding visible holes/patches to the outside plaster,
but if this hesitation leads to severe decay in the straw,
that is obviously a poor trade-off.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One thing we can be certain of is that extreme,
nearly horizontal rain has been hitting these walls.
This year may have been worse than average, but it is
poor strategy to suppose that the same or worse won’t
happen again in other years. That suggests that a
physical barrier is needed to protect these walls, along
the lines of the ventilated rain screen that John
Straube described. The probability, and in my view, the
certainty, that the exterior plaster needs to be
covered, ought to decrease the worries about drilling a
few holes in the exterior plaster, in order to take
additional moisture readings. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Derek<br>
<div>
<div style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-VARIANT:
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<div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
Derek Roff</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:derek@unm.edu">derek@unm.edu</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<br style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; FONT-VARIANT: normal;
FONT-STYLE: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 0px;
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class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Apr 6, 2017, at 6:21 PM, Paula Baker-Laporte
FAIA <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:paula@econest.com">paula@econest.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">We have used Keim liquid silicate
coatings over earth plasters in an area that was
very susceptable to erosion from driving rain
and had great success with it. They make many
different products and do a lot of restorations
with it in Europe and so I imagine they have a
solution to use over lime. Coatings are clear or
pigmented. They can also do very exact color
matching if a sample is sent to them. <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.keimpaints.co.uk/about_us/comparison_of_keim_mineral_paints_and_limewash/">http://www.keimpaints.co.uk/about_us/comparison_of_keim_mineral_paints_and_limewash/</a></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at
2:19 PM, John Straube <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jfstraube@gmail.com"
target="_blank">jfstraube@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px
solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">Hi
all<br>
Interesting case because it looks like they
did almost everything correctly. I am sorry
to hear of their bad luck. The photo is
quite telling, but I do wonder how the rain
is getting in at that angle (other than
stupidly high levels of wind)<br>
I agree with you Dave that the numbers are
not “run for the hills” but they are
worrisome.<br>
Definitely worth checking for any of the
obvious bulk water flaws and being more
careful and complete in your MC
measurements.<br>
<br>
I can be certain of one thing … there is
definitely an amount of rain that will over
whelm the lime plaster, and cause wetting of
the straw. That amount depends on the
drying potential of the climate and the lime
plaster thickness and properties. Nothing
magic about lime, it is just better than
cement, and much better than unite.<br>
<br>
It is expensive and invasive to dry the
wall by drilling holes and blowing dry air.
The hard part is the machine with dry air
(desiccant driers are available from flood
restoration companies). One could simply
blow heater air into holes… easier, still
annoying.<br>
I would consider hanging a dark coloured (to
collect solar heat) tarp or geotextile from
the overhang edge/gutter to the grade to act
as a highly ventilated (critical), rain
screen. This will stop further wetting and
along drying.<br>
Also, adding heat to the inside will be
helpful: increases the interior temperature
where wetness is evident by even 5 degrees
will help, although a steady and spatially
uniform 10 or more will really make a
difference in a matter of weeks. I know
people who have used arrays of heat lamps,
plug in electric heaters with the door
closed, and stoked up wood stoves to drive
moisture out of walls.<br>
<br>
If the MC can get below 20% or so, then I
think you have a lot of time to design an
upgrade… almost all coatings have limits and
are not as good as a real over clad. Xypex
is a pore blocker (hence reduces vapor
permeance) that reacts with alkalinity to
form calcium silicates. Could work well
with fresh lime, but probably wont work well
with the exterior carbonated surface of the
lime. I would be quite skeptical of most
coatings… products like Silanes certainly
work and can make a pretty big difference,
we just dont know if they make enough of a
difference.<br>
<br>
If acceptable, it is pretty cheap and simple
to install horizontal 1x4’s with 45 degree
sawn top edges over the lime plaster at, say
36” on centre or so, then add vertical
boards with generous joints. Or add
vertical 1x4 and clapboard siding (much more
effective at rain shedding). This will
reduce the wetting by a factor of 10 or
more, and only slow drying by a bit (if well
ventilated) so a pretty massive improvement
and certain to solve driving rain problems
(if that is what this is).<br>
Planting a hedge and some trees a dozen
yards upwind would also be a good idea.<br>
More good pictures like that one sent would
possibly help provide more ideas.<br>
<br>
John<br>
<br>
<br>
> On Apr 5, 2017, at 7:42 PM, David
Arkin, AIA <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:david@arkintilt.com">david@arkintilt.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hello Global Balers:<br>
><br>
> A CASBA member poses the questions
outlined in the situation below. I’ve
attached my responses below the query and
photo, and invite any of you to weigh in
with further recommendations, follow-up
questions or anecdotes that may be useful.<br>
><br>
> Best,<br>
><br>
> David Arkin, AIA, Director<br>
> California Straw Building Association<br>
><br>
> ps: Joins us for CASBA’s 2017 Spring
Conference, May 5-7 in the San Francisco Bay
Area, featuring architect Craig White of the
U.K.: "Towards a Photosynthetic
Architecture - Renewable Buildings for the
Circular Carbon Economy”. Registration is
open: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.strawbuilding.org/event-2497515"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.strawbuilding.org/<wbr>event-2497515</a><br>
><br>
> * * * * *<br>
><br>
> I’m hoping you can address some of my
questions or direct me to anyone with
experience dealing with this problem, or
anyone who has any insights into causes and
solutions.<br>
><br>
> I was contacted this morning by a
client just south of Portland who has
measured high levels of moisture in their
straw bale walls, and is asking for advice
on how to deal with the problem.<br>
><br>
> The core questions I have are these:<br>
><br>
> 1. Assuming there isn’t a bulk
water leak from the roof, downspout, or
window, can wind-driven rain account for
high levels of moisture in a straw bale wall
assembly? In other words, what does it take
for a properly installed lime plaster to be
overwhelmed by wind-driven rain?<br>
><br>
> 2. What are the options for
drying the wall out? Waiting for dry
weather (summer!) may not be an option as
wet straw bales may not survive that long.<br>
><br>
> 3. Once the wall is dried out,
assuming there isn’t significant permanent
damage to the bales, what surface treatments
are available that would prevent liquid
moisture from soaking into the walls, yet
keep them vapor permeable. I can imagine
several landscaping and rain screen (siding)
solutions, but am not familiar with surface
treatments.<br>
><br>
> Background Information.<br>
><br>
> Details about the wall assembly. The
SB walls are on a raised floor. The space
between the sill plates was filled with rock
wool insulation and capped with 1Ž2” plywood
to handle the bale weight. The wall
assembly has 2-string rice straw bales laid
flat, and is part of the building’s shear
wall system, using 17 gauge lath and lime
plaster (exterior and interior). Instead
of applying a finish coat of lime plaster
the client chose to apply a lime based paint
from BioShield. I didn’t plaster the
structure or apply the lime paint, but
believe it was done by capable professionals
in accordance with best practices. The
bales were stack in April-May of 2016.
Bale wall moisture readings just prior to
plastering averaged 14.1%. The wall was
prepped to receive a lime plaster—2-layer
building paper stapled to all wood framing,
shingled to shed water, etc. The windows
have sills, the 4’ roof overhangs are
guttered and the downspout installed
properly. The walls were plastered during
late spring and early summer. Three coats
of exterior lime paint were applied in late
summer-early fall. When I visited in
November, I saw vertical cracks at the
corners only (where I always see them,
regardless of how much corner-aid or exp.
metal lath is underneath!).<br>
><br>
> Building site. The house is located in
an open field and has no barriers to wind
driven rain. The general contractor, who
happens to live next-door, told me the field
is like a wind tunnel. He reported that
since it began raining in the fall of 2016
he hasn’t seen the walls look dry more than
a dozen times.<br>
><br>
> The problem first came to my attention
about a month ago when the client told me
they smelled something awful in one of their
rooms—the one with the most weather exposure
(S. W. corner of building, labeled “office”
on the plans). I haven’t visited the site,
but advised them to first investigate and
rule out all the other likely possible
causes for an odor (e.g. decomposing straw
piled near the house, something else rotting
in the crawl space, etc.), and if the odor
persisted, to gather quantifiable
information, including using a moisture
meter probed into the wall near outlets,
which they have now done, (see below).<br>
><br>
> <image001.png><br>
><br>
><br>
> <image002.png><br>
><br>
> The office is in the S. W. corner of
the structure. I’m not familiar with the
probe they used, but it’s likely that the
shaft is about 18” long, and if used as
described to me, “poked in a 45 degree angle
from the interior of the wall near the
outlets”, probably penetrated about 5” into
the wall when it reads 8”, and about 12”
into the wall where the chart says “full
in.” From all the points they gathered
data, moisture readings were higher towards
the exterior of the wall.<br>
><br>
> My understanding is that lime plasters
will absorb and then release liquid moisture
from wind driven rain, and are quite able to
handle regular, frequent wettings without
compromising the straw beneath. If bulk
water isn’t entering the wall through a
breach in the flashing or another leak of
some kind, is it possible that an unusually
wet winter (I believe the Willamette Valley
is experiencing a well-above average
rainfall year like much of the west coast)
could create the moisture levels seen
below? Is it possible that the water is
soaking in, and just keeps soaking in,
unable to dry out because of the constant
rains?<br>
> <wind driven rain on lime plastered
SB wall, S exposure..jpg><br>
><br>
> * * * * *<br>
><br>
> [Arkin comments in reply]<br>
><br>
> The moisture readings aren’t as high as
I would’ve guessed based on your description
… that’s perhaps good news. We had a wall
at the Real Goods Solar Living Center that
was an exterior site wall with very little
overhang, and it would get pounded by the
rain. We had a moisture reading over 50%!
However, in Hopland’s sunny hot climate it
dried out between rains and now with a new
broad overhang it is doing fine, 20+ years
later. Similarly a small outbuilding on
that same site was flooded to the middle of
the second level of bales. It was earth
plastered and we advised to simply let it be
and see what happens. The building has no
windows or doors (it’s a ‘welcome pavilion’)
and once again it dried out promptly and has
been fine.<br>
><br>
> At the same time, I’m recalling an
olive oil facility that was on top of a hill
in San Luis Obispo County, that had
wind-driven rain penetrate cracks in the
Gunite finish on their bale walls, to the
point of black goo oozing out the base.
That’s when you know you have real trouble.
They drilled holes and drove air into the
bottom of the walls, and also put a layer of
breathable waterproofing on the exterior of
the walls. Similar to your case here, it
was the windward side that had the worst
problems, but rain swirling around the
building caused some issues on the leeward
side too.<br>
><br>
> Here are my opinions on your questions,
but let me be the first to admit there are
others who could answer these better than
me:<br>
><br>
> 1. The photo sure makes it look like
wind driven rain, and at quite an angle!
Another 10’ of overhang (aka a porch) along
that facade seems in order. Exactly how much
moisture it takes to overwhelm a lime
plaster wall is difficult to say. I’m
recalling studies done by the University of
Bath that placed plastered wall samples in
very exposed marine climates to determine
this. You might search for this, perhaps
starting with EBNet’s BuildWell Library.
Bruce King may be able to connect you with
Pete Walker, or you could try to reach him
directly.<br>
><br>
> 2. Again, the numbers aren’t so high
that invasive measures need to be taken.
I’d suggest putting some more powerful
heaters on the interior, and aim to drive
the moisture out toward the exterior. At
the same time they should deploy tarps or
some other means of keeping wind driven rain
off the walls going forward, but let the sun
and warmth at them otherwise.<br>
><br>
> 3. Again, my first suggestion is a
longer porch roof along that whole facade,
perhaps with some landscaping or something
to break up the laminar wind. I suppose a
deployable system of a rain screen of some
sort could also be used. Allowing the walls
to see sun this spring and summer will be
good though. Xypex is a product that folks
have applied to walls, but I’m more familiar
with its application on cement stucco than
lime, so research that a bit first. David
Easton suggests Glaze ’n’ Seal on his earth
walls. I believe both have that
waterproofing effect while still remaining
breathable.<br>
><br>
> As you know, both the plaster and the
straw have a significant capacity to store
and release moisture, and it seems they are
doing exactly that. I can’t say for
certain, but this being their first season
they may not be damaged to the point of
needing to be replaced, but the smell
detected is concerning. Getting them to dry
and then keeping them dry going forward is
key, and if necessary some replacement may
be needed, but I’d advise trying to avoid
that first.<br>
><br>
> * * * * *<br>
> Arkin Tilt Architects<br>
> Ecological Planning & Design<br>
><br>
> Please Support (or Join?!) my 2017
Climate Ride (bicycling 300 miles from SF to
SLO, June 9-13, with a fundraising goal of
$5,000 to support Straw-Bale outreach)<br>
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><br>
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><br>
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> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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> "There is no way to peace. Peace is the
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> — A. J. Muste<br>
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<div>Paula Baker-Laporte FAIA,BBEC<br>
Econest Architecture Inc.<br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Chris Magwood
Director, Endeavour Centre
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