<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div>Graeme (et al) —<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Be sure to read John Straube’s extensive reply on this thread, like “<i class="">Cellulose, rockwool, fiberglass and expanded polystyrene all increase their R-value as density increases from very low levels All have an optimal point, which varies slightly, and then the R-value drops again.</i>”.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">John surely knows more than I, but it’s easy to imagine that a per-inch R-value for an insulation material will be a function of several things, such as:</div><div class="">- the conductance of the material itself (as opposed to the fluffy insulation product), e.g., the solid wall of the straw vs. a tube-shaped single straw vs. a straw bale — three very different things</div><div class="">- the size of the captured air pockets:</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>- how much do they vary?</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>- how much do they interconnect?</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>- what is the average size? ( can there be convection cycles within them?</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>- and probably other things</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Everybody make a mental note: the next time some student asks what straw bale subject needs further research, this is it: what is optimal density for optimal thermal resistance?</div><div class=""><br class=""><div apple-content-edited="true" class="">
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; 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-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">Thanks,</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">Bruce King</div></div></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; 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<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 26, 2015, at 12:06 PM, Graeme North <<a href="mailto:graeme@ecodesign.co.nz" class="">graeme@ecodesign.co.nz</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; " class=""><div class="">Bruce</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Interesting</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My observation of R values of different materials over many years , (esp with earthen materials mixed with aggregates of different densities ranging from stone to straw), generally points to an almost linear and direct inverse correlation between density and R value, whereby R value increases as density decreases - so am a bit puzzled by this discussion</div><div class="">Unless the k value for straw is significantly better than that of still air?</div><div class="">And is there really any significant convective flow of air within a straw bale, plastered or not? </div><div class="">Has anyone got any figures?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">More questions than answers</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Graeme </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div class=""><div class="">On 25/01/2015, at 12:43 PM, Bruce EBNet <<a href="mailto:bruce@ecobuildnetwork.org" class="">bruce@ecobuildnetwork.org</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite" class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div>Let me jump right in with a couple of things to add to Martin’s post:<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">1) I have been a board member and partial owner of Stak Block for ten years, so speak with a bit of certainty when I basically agree with Martin; the thermal tests were a bit funky (an undergrad engineering student doing his first unguarded hot plate test at Cal Polytechnic University in California). I emphatically agree that we don’t know, and would like to know, the optimal density of a straw bale (or block) for insulating purposes. My gut sense is that it will be denser than conventional bales, maybe even as dense as Peter’s super-compressed bales.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">2) The widely-accepted R-values Martin quotes are averaged values taken across a plastered bale section, including the thickness of plaster. A plastered straw bale wall is an intricate composite assembly that achieves far better structural, fire and thermal properties than the sum of its constituent parts. That is, a straw bale by itself probably has much less than R1.3 or 2 as described because there is no plaster to arrest convective air flow across the assembly.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">3) When we ran the straw bale research program 14 years ago we did look at super compressed bales, but only glancingly. If someone contemplates using them in a building, they should consider not only R-value, but also bond of plaster to the face of straw (is it better? worse?).</div><div class=""><br class=""><div apple-content-edited="true" class="">
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px;"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">cheers everyone,</div><div style="margin: 0px; min-height: 14px;" class=""><br class=""></div><div style="margin: 0px;" class="">Bruce King</div></div></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span></div></span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; 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<br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 24, 2015, at 3:12 PM, martin hammer <<a href="mailto:mfhammer@pacbell.net" class="">mfhammer@pacbell.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<title class="">Re: [GSBN] R value export straw blocks?</title>
<div class="">
<font face="Arial" class=""><span style="font-size:9pt" class="">Hello Lance,<br class="">
<br class="">
A delayed reply on this.<br class="">
<br class="">
A company in California called Oryzatech (<a href="http://www.oryzatech.com/" class="">http://www.oryzatech.com/</a>) has for years been in the development of manufacturing a compressed straw block called Stak Block (see attached fact sheet). They have made claims of an R-value of 3.89/inch (see 2nd attachment). I like this product in many ways and think it has tremendous potential. However I’m skeptical of the R-value claim because I haven’t seen a bona fide testing report, and it’s hard to believe the R-value of a compressed straw block would double compared to a typical straw bale. <br class="">
<br class="">
The R-value for a straw bale, from the most trusted test in the US (the 1998 guarded hot-box test at Oak Ridge National Laboratory) is R 1.3/inch laid flat and R-2/inch on-edge. This is still a matter of debate, but this is what the testing showed. The difference in R-value per inch is explained by the predominant orientation of the straw in a bale (or at least in the bales tested). <br class="">
<br class="">
Though counterintuitive, it’s possible a compressed bale would have a higher unit R-value than a normal bale, if by being compressed it confines more air spaces. Thermal resistance is all about maximizing the number of confined air spaces and reducing thermal bridging. Regarding the latter, I would expect the thermal bridging across a bale would increase when it is compressed. There is likely an optimum density for straw that will yield the highest unit R-value, but this has yet to be researched and demonstrated.<br class="">
<br class="">
Another point of thermal resistance comparison is polyiscocyanurate, which has the highest unit R-value of any foam plastic insulation at R 5.6/inch. For years polyiso claimed an R-value of 6.0/inch (or higher), but it was adjusted downward a year ago under new testing protocol. (Sorry to bring a distasteful petrochemical insulation into the discussion of natural insulation! It does have quite an ability to insulate however.) Fiberglass insulation is said to be R3.1 to R4/inch (material only, not including thermal bridging of framing).<br class="">
<br class="">
Regarding density, from the Stak Block fact sheet, the 1’x1’x2’ blocks weigh 30 pounds. So they are 15 pcf or 240 kg/m3. Peter’s compressed bales are 468 kg/m3. Those are quite dense, almost twice as dense as the Stak Blocks, and 4 times as dense as a typical straw bale. Even if you trust the R-values I’m stating for a typical straw bale and for a Stak Block, I don’t know how you would reliably extrapolate them to a denser block. The obvious answer is to subject Peter’s blocks to a reliable test.<br class="">
<br class="">
You or Peter Torok might contact the co-founder of the company Stak Block to better understand nature of their blocks and their tested thermal resistance. Ben Korman: <a href="x-msg://111/d2bdesign@gmail.com" class="">d2bdesign@gmail.com</a><br class="">
<br class="">
Speaking of Peter, was he ever seconded and brought into GSBN?<br class="">
<br class="">
I hope this is helpful.<br class="">
<br class="">
Best.<br class="">
<br class="">
Martin<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</span><span style="font-size:8pt" class=""><b class=""><i class="">Martin Hammer, Architect<br class="">
</i></b>1348 Hopkins St.<br class="">
</span><span style="font-size:7pt" class="">Berkeley, CA 94702<br class="">
</span><span style="font-size:9pt" class=""><br class="">
<br class="">
On 1/1/15 7:41 PM, "Lance Kairl" <<a href="x-msg://111/sabale@bigpond.com" class="">sabale@bigpond.com</a>> wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
</span></font><blockquote class="" type="cite"><font color="#1F497D" class=""><font size="5" class=""><font face="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial" class=""><span style="font-size:11pt" class="">Any one have an idea on R value for super compressed export Bales.<br class="">
<br class="">
Any info will be passed on ,<br class="">
Although I should nominate Peter to join the list.<br class="">
Is there a seconder out there, and then I will fill you in on his good works.<br class="">
<br class="">
Regards lance kairl<br class="">
Hosue of Bales.<br class="">
<br class="">
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</font><font size="4" class=""><font face="Tahoma, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial" class=""><span style="font-size:10pt" class=""><b class="">From:</b> Peter Torok [<a href="mailto:torokenterprise@me.com" class="">mailto:torokenterprise@me.com</a>] <br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b> Thursday, 11 December 2014 1:13 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> House of Bales<br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> R value<br class="">
</span></font></font><font size="5" class=""><font face="Times New Roman" class=""><span style="font-size:12pt" class=""> <br class="">
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</font><font size="5" class=""><font face="Times New Roman" class=""><span style="font-size:12pt" class="">G'day lance, <br class="">
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</font><font size="5" class=""><font face="Times New Roman" class=""><span style="font-size:12pt" class=""><br class="">
As discussed these bales are very well compacted, the dimensions are 400x500x480 45kg or 400x500x240 22kg baled at less than 12% moisture and compressed at 5000 psi. If the bales were sitting on the 400 side, the straw runs horizontal. I inquired about lowering the pressure and he felt the integrity of the bale would be jeopardized, but more pressure can still be applied. I hope that is enough information to calculate a rough R value for both thickness', I look forward to hearing what you come up with. Thanks for helping me out with this, it's very much appreciated.<br class="">
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</font><font size="5" class=""><font face="Times New Roman" class=""><span style="font-size:12pt" class="">I have found old studies from around 2003 that calculate between R1.4-2.4 US measure / inch<br class="">
<br class="">
<font color="#1F497D" class=""><b class="">This R1.4 – 2.4 relates to standard housing bales,<br class="">
Export ones may equate to the R value for Timber??<br class="">
</b></font><br class="">
Regards Pete Torok<br class="">
</span></font></font><font face="Arial" class=""><br class="">
</font><font size="5" class=""><font face="Times New Roman" class=""><span style="font-size:12pt" class=""><b class="">Earth Wood & Straw<br class="">
</b></span></font></font><font face="Arial" class=""><br class="">
</font><font size="5" class=""><font face="Times New Roman" class=""><span style="font-size:12pt" class=""><b class="">0411 304 794 <tel:0411%20304%20794> <br class="">
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