<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; "><div><div><div>Good morning Sarah, Sven, Derek & All,</div><div><br></div><div>I agree with Derek's summary and have "another" piece of physics and chemistry to add :</div><div><br></div><div>Lime plasters (using fully hydrated quick lime) and of a high calcium content with low or no clay contaminants MUST HAVE free water in the mix, which acts like a catalyst, to transfer the atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2) into the plaster matrix which reacts with the calcium hydroxide to create the calcium carbonate we seek as the durable white stuff we all love ! This free water must be at the free (outer) surface ! ! ! ! ! ! </div><div>ALSO</div><div>The apparent surface temperature is critical for this reaction to occur and prevent the surface not to dry and/or go slimy as the plaster freezes and skins over – one good measure is to consider the lime skin as akin to ones skin where the hypothermic effect of wind shearing over the surface causes excessive evaporation and under cooling = not a good scenario in either terms a) for the surface drying and loss of catalyst free water = kills the surface and inhibits further reaction within the plaster layer b) reduces the skin temperature to below the "freeze" temperature (around 8 – 10 c) which again kills the surface = dead and crumbly plasters that do not perform in your exposed environment !</div><div><br></div><div>Another consideration is the vertical chimney effect these high winds will have on your proposal</div><div><br></div><div>Regarding key of plaster onto a strong substrate – I refer you to the published works by Holmes & Wingate or Schofield who have historical techniques to mechanically fix lime plasters ( 12 + thick) to solid walls</div><div><br></div><div>Following inspection of a Earthquake damaged straw bale building where very thin skin stucco with acrylic paint was used as a weather shield over earthen plasters I can vouch that this do not work, especially on exposed faces ! ! ! ! ! Water will get in and cause loss of bond and worse </div><div><br></div><div>For what it is worth a well mixed earthen plaster with sufficient clay to bind and lots of grit and straw chaff (fine cob stuff) will weather and be amenable to regular clay slip repairs and surface maintenance, as we imagine to occur in historic Taos N M village life and other traditional cultures where earthen buildings are more the norm and regular maintenance part of the culture.</div><div> </div><div>Here at adobe cottage we use a thin skin lime plaster render with a lime wash (diluted lime putty brushed on) over cement stabilized adobes as a sacrificial weather skin and acknowledge this needs random minor repairs where delamination has occurred on the exposed corner and walls.</div><div>(as an aside, lime plaster with the addition of a hand full of fresh cow pat that has been well massaged onto a protected wall that has a good key [roughened] and is kept humidified and protected from wind and cold has proven effective and sticks like the proverbial . . . . )</div><div><br></div><div>Regards</div><div><br></div><div>Ian E Redfern</div><div><br></div><div><!--[if !mso]>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:#595959;mso-themecolor:
text1;mso-themetint:166">Ian Redfern<br>
<b>Adobe South</b><br>
<b>A:</b> 5 Lancewood Rise, Onerahi, Whangarei<br>
<b>P:</b> 09 436 4040 <b>M:</b>
027 490 2324<br>
<b>E:</b> ian@adobesouth.co.nz<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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none;mso-border-insidev:none"><tbody></tbody></table><!--EndFragment--></div></div></div></div></div><div><br></div><span id="OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style="font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style="font-weight:bold">From: </span> Derek Stearns Roff <<a href="mailto:derek@unm.edu">derek@unm.edu</a>><br><span style="font-weight:bold">Reply-To: </span> Global Straw Building Network <<a href="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com">GSBN@sustainablesources.com</a>><br><span style="font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Monday, April 21, 2014 8:02 AM<br><span style="font-weight:bold">To: </span> Sarah Johnston <<a href="mailto:sol_design@yahoo.com">sol_design@yahoo.com</a>>, Global Straw Building Network <<a href="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com">GSBN@sustainablesources.com</a>><br><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [GSBN] The Reasoning For Hessien<br></div><div><br></div><div><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=Windows-1252"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div>Hi, Sven,</div><div><br></div><div>I’m concerned about the phrase:</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite"><div style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 10pt; position: static; z-index: auto;"><div class=""><span class="">The reason to install the hessien is to stop the lime from cracking as the body coat dries and the reason to apply the lime while the body coat is still wet is to keep the lime damp in a very dry and windy climate. </span></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div>Some historians would tell us that “the reason that the Greeks sacrificed goats before the building of a temple, was to protect the structure from earthquakes, lightening, and other natural and godly risks.” </div><div><br></div><div>I fear that both of the asserted “reasons" above have similarly large appeals to human psychology, quite separate from the amount of support from physics. The “reason” (motivation) for our making a choice reflects our hopes, knowledge, experiences, and
fantasies. The “reason” (cause and effect) that a technique works or fails in a particular building reflects the physics and conditions involved. Our motivation may or may not overlap the physics, but they are seldom identical. </div><div><br></div><div>Returning to the “reason” given for using the hessien (hessian), the hope is that it will “stop the lime from cracking as the body coat dries”. So let’s think about how congruent this hope might be with what we know about the materials. The clay body-coat
of plaster will still shrink as it dries, and the hessian can't stop the shrinkage. Hence, the hessian must either move and shrink with the body coat, or move independently of it. Each of these possibilities increases the chance of delamination, between
some layers of the plaster system, and there will be some stresses between the layers in any case. Similarly, the slip coat on top of the hessian will want to shrink as it dries, and will either move with the hessian, or not. In the version described below,
it sounds like we have eliminated the clay slip coat over the hessian described previously, and gone directly to the lime plaster. </div><div><br></div><div>Next we apply the lime over the clay-soaked hessian, or else over a well-keyed, fairly wet clay slip layer, which shows our optimism. Wet clay plaster is very soft. The maximum possible strength of a physical key in wet clay is very small. I have no
idea about the bond likely between lime and clay-soaked hessian. We now have a thick body coat of clay plaster, still drying, a layer of damp, clay-impregnated hessian, perhaps a layer of damp clay slip, and a layer of wet lime plaster. All drying and moving
at different rates. But we plan for them all to cure strong and well-bonded to each other. </div><div><br></div><div>Further, we believe that the water in the clay layers will make a substantial contribution to the moisture curing of the lime plaster exposed to the "100km/hr winds" of "a dry and windy climate." During this cure, the moisture in the clay is entirely
under the lime layer. The wind and dry air are entirely outside the lime layer. So we would expect a significant moisture gradient across the thickness of the lime layer. The lime layer will likely be pretty stiff within a couple of days, while the clay
layers will take a good bit longer to dry. </div><div><br></div><div>The suggestion is made to punch holes in the hessian after it is applied to the clay body-coat, to “provide a bomb proof key.” I assume that this reflects, felicitously, the very limited New Zealand experience with bombs. I’m unconvinced that we can
get a strong, reliable bond this way. I’d like to learn how you would go about punching holes in the hessian over wet clay, without distressing the hessian/clay bond. </div><div><br></div><div>I started the next to last paragraph with the words, “we believe”, but in fact, this system has too many unknowns and assumptions for me to believe in it, without very specific testing. I am well aware that Sven also has his doubts about the proposals,
and is trying to find a way to make things work under difficult conditions. I have great respect for Sven, and his experience. I fear that if he allows himself to get pushed into using this plan built on someone else’s fantasies, it could backfire very badly
on him. Putting your reputation on the line, using an untested system invented by someone else (conjectured would be a better word), is very risky. Be careful, Sven. </div><div><br></div><div>Best wishes,</div><div>Derek</div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On Apr 20, 2014, at 12:44 PM, Sarah Johnston <<a href="mailto:sol_design@yahoo.com">sol_design@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 10pt; position: static; z-index: auto;"><div class="" style=""><span class="" style=""> Thank you to those who replied to my earlier post. Here is some background on this project/concept.</span></div><div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class=""><span class="" style=""><br class="" style=""></span></div><div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class=""><span class="" style="">The reason to install the hessien is to stop the lime from cracking as the body coat dries and the reason to apply the lime while the body coat is still wet is to keep the lime damp in a very dry and windy climate. It is also very
nice to be able to get all the plastering completed at one time rather than having to come back in 6 or 12 months. While tarps are always used to protect the lime walls, it is very difficult to keep the tarps in place during 100km/hr winds. Summer is too
hot and winter too cold so the window of opportunity is very small for lime application.</span></div><div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class=""><span class="" style=""><br class="" style=""></span></div><div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class=""><span class="" style="">While I have not personally used this technique, a friend who does use it is a true believer. My concern is delamination in the long run and his experience can not debunk that concern. </span></div><div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class=""><br class="" style=""></div><div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class="">
Does anyone have thoughts on the following......</div><div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class=""><br class="" style=""></div><div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class="">
The hessien is worked into the face of the body coat, wire brushed to lift the fibers then punch holes through the hessien to create a solid key into the body coat. Lime would then be applied directly to the hessien and would key into the holes as well as
the fine fiber of the hessien. The hope is the hessien will prevent the cracking and the holes will provide a bomb proof key. This technique could help in situations that Derek has pointed out, when you have a lime that does not like to bond to the clay,
the hessien and the holes create that key. Test walls are being prepared. We will try 10mm dia, 20mm deep @ 75 centers and 10mm dia, 15mm deep @ 50mm centers. sorry if you do not speak mm, I have mostly used US spelling :)</div><div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class=""><br class="" style=""></div><div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class="">
This project is being covered by the TV show Grand Designs so the techniques that are used could be very well publicized, thus a double reason to make sure everything works very well! <br class="" style=""></div><div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class=""><br class="" style=""></div><div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class="">
Would love to hear any thoughts!</div><div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class=""><br class="" style=""></div><div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class="">
Thanks,</div><div style="font-size: 13px; font-family: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;" class="">
Sven</div><div class="" style=""></div><div class="" style=""> </div><div class="" style="">Sarah & Sven Johnston <br class="" style="">
Sol Design, Ltd. <br class="" style="">
50A Connolly Street <br class="" style="">
Geraldine 7930 New Zealand <br class="" style="">
03 693 7369 <br class="" style=""><a href="mailto:sol_design@yahoo.com">sol_design@yahoo.com</a> <br class="" style=""><a href="http://www.soldesign.co.nz">www.soldesign.co.nz</a></div></div></div>
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<a href="http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN">http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN</a><br></blockquote></div><br><div apple-content-edited="true"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px; ">Derek Roff<br><a href="mailto:derek@unm.edu">derek@unm.edu</a><br><br></span></div><br></div></div>
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