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Y'know, we've started producing rice here in VT - small scale and
still pretty experimental, mind you - but hey, maybe the future
holds a similar pattern for us ;)<br>
<br>
Quick quip - nutrient loading isn't necessarily the primary benefit
to integrating carbon-rich straw into the soil (or as RT points out,
even a benefit at all if not kept in proper chemical balance) -
improving the tilth, which is heavily impacted by common cultivation
practices (admittedly, I know nothing about large-scale rice
production, so apply here to wheat et al) is a big benefit of
integrating organic matter into the soil. Assuming nitrogen is also
introduced in good balance (i.e. manure - hence the benefit of
closed-loop, diversified agriculture), about 80:20 C:N, it's a key
part of maintaining/restoring soil ecology, even without a high
nutrient content itself. Often mixture crops, such as oats/peas or
rye/vetch, are planted as green manures to serve this purpose
without animal inputs.<br>
<br>
But really, that's not the point, for me. I have no expectations
that industrial-scale ag account for the net removal of carbon from
the soils, nor that we must address this in order to feel good about
building with straw, nor that we need immediately shift our practice
or stop advocating for working with straw as a solution. I'm
interested in the diversity of agricultural industries in which we
as bale builders interface - and would still love to hear from
others around the globe - to get a clear sense of how we weave in.
Because we are looking at seriously scaling up straw building
production - it's already happening, and is clearly poised to grow
much more in the next few decades - understanding that context is
really helpful to guide how best to move forward leveraging the
benefits while mitigating the liabilities. Sounds like you folks
out in Rice Country have nothing to worry about anytime soon.
Others of us may need to look a little more closely at sourcing
(probably not a lot, but a little) in the near future, and at least
understand our role - I have no expectations that straw will at any
point be LESS ecologically-friendly than any other form of
insulation, but having agency in which supplier we choose, or how we
work with farms, or if we plan on scaling up regional pre-fab straw
panel production what that impact and those relationships will look
like, are born from a knowledge of that context. Whether it's
tilling in for tilth, or throwing down for bedding, or used for
cellulosic ethanol, or wall insulation - it's all quite fascinating
(at least for me, where straw isn't so abundant it's being torched
in the fields) as we see changes in climate, economy, scale, and
market...<br>
<br>
Wrapping up day 2 of what's looking like a week-long power outage
from a major weekend ice storm - wishing a safe and warm holiday to
you all.<br>
<br>
Jacob<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/21/13, 12:37 PM, John Swearingen
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAKij1duQPoevMkby3OeeXic1CbDA=Xg3XH4JnyySpdm8pyyimg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Interesting discussion. We had an engineer from Ladakh
visit the office. He was interested in building with straw
because of the great insulation value. The Indian military
has a big presence there, and they've built uninstalled
concrete block buildings which they heat with very polluting
diesel boilers. The problem is that for the native Ladakhis,
the small amount of straw that's produced locally is a very
valuable commodity with many uses; putting it into buildings
would be a downgrade. His idea was to import straw from
India. Sounds crazy, but the Indian military has a continuous
stream of supply trucks going up Highway 1 from Shrinigar to
Ladakh, the world's highest highway. Often these trucks carry
heavy, but small equipment, leaving space on the truck for
light but bulky material, such as straw--the straw could get a
free ride. I don't know how that's going. He said the
greatest obstacle is that the military governors in Ladakh
make a considerable amount in kickbacks on the diesel trade, a
disincentive for buildings that conserve energy. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
Just out of curiosity, I found two maps of roughly similar
scale. The first shows rice fields in the Sacramento Valley
ONLY. (incidentally part of a study about how pesticide run-off
might be negatively affecting salmon. The second is a map of
Vermont. It's hard to grasp the extent of rice growing. A
study in 1990 put the acreage of rice BURNED at about 1.2
million acres..
<div>
It wouldn't be a complete exaggeration to say it's as if all
of Vermont were covered in rice paddies and ....interesting
thought.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><img moz-do-not-send="true"
src="http://ca.water.usgs.gov/projects/PFRG/images/SacramentoValleyRice_Full.jpg"
alt="Inline image 1" height="420" width="322"><img
moz-do-not-send="true"
src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Vermont_wind_resource_map_50m_800.jpg"
alt="Inline image 2" height="420" width="324"><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But I ramble.....</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>John</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 8:57 PM, Jacob
Deva Racusin <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:buildnatural@googlemail.com" target="_blank">buildnatural@googlemail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Really interesting.
Here on the east coast, common cover crops (green manures)
are rye, wheat, buckwheat, oat - all common cereal straws
we see in buildings (maybe not so much buckwheat, and
oat's a bit weak but works alright for in-fill walls).
They all have different benefits for soil - rye is good
for arresting spring erosion given its growth culture,
buckwheat is a quick crop, oat is a good nurse crop - and
certainly tilth may be more favorable than nutrient
availability for some of these, but I'm out of my
knowledge base here - suffice to say cereal grains are
commonly planted for cover cropping out here. I
understand that the timing in which they are integrated as
a cover crop is not necessarily the same as a harvest
crop, but tilling in is a common practice in sustainable
grain production (when the crop isn't marketable or
prioritized) - although I'm sure it's much more nuanced
than that (Derek, interesting point about disease). John,
sounds like rice is quite a different story!<br>
<br>
I'm happy to hear that there is such good abundance out
west - seems like this is much less of an issue out
there. I've noticed straw being less abundant in the 12
years I've been building with it - granted, some years are
worse than others and seasonal variations abound.
Honestly, I don't know enough about the big picture here
to comment much further - part of the reason I take
interest in this topic, lots more for me to learn. I
don't want to take supply for granted, and since straw
isn't a 'resource distribution' (aka waste) problem out
here, I'm still a bit unsettled about how our burgeoning
industry fits into the bigger picture. Really, if this is
what we're concerned with, we're doing great compared to
most of the rest of the building industry - but it's not
the complete no-brainer east coast as it still seems to be
west coast. I continue to be humbled by the intricacies
of the ecologies and economies in which we operate.
Thanks John for describing more about the environment in
which rice straw is used as a resource in your neck of the
woods, very interesting indeed.<br>
<br>
Like Derek, I too am interested in others' experiences
with straw sourcing and regional production. I'm grateful
for the diversity of opinions and regions represented on
this list.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Jacob
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<div>On 12/20/13, 11:20 PM, Derek Stearns Roff wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> However, this part of the
discussion reminds me of the distance between what
could be and perhaps should be, and how things
currently work. It's true that almost all
agriculture is pulling nutrients from the soil, and
replacing them with artificial fertilizers. Plants
have been bred to minimize the waste products and
maximize the salable products. So even if all stalks
and roots were returned to the soil, a large amount
of mass would still be removed each year.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm told that two other factors militate
against the return of straw to the soil. For the
same reasons that we like straw for building, it
isn't particularly good as a soil builder. It
doesn't break down all that easily, and it doesn't
have that many valuable nutrients. A more severe
impediment is that many farmers believe that
returning plant stalks to the soil can increase
the frequency of soil diseases affecting those
plants. Unless crop rotation is sufficiently
diverse, tilling straw, or other plant stalks back
into the soil can reduce crop yields in subsequent
years. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I read that straw is still a waste product, and
that in California, storage of excess straw is a
problem. Even though finding good bales is hard,
I believe that straw is still treated as a waste
product across much of the west. I would be
interested in learning more about the situation in
the east, and in other countries. <br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Derek</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Dec 20, 2013, at 8:37 PM, Jacob Deva
Racusin wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">I
think that Carol makes a crucial point -
straw is actually getting more difficult
to find here, and there are a lot of
competing industries both within ag and in
landscaping. Heck, there's a pretty big
farm west of us that grows a straw crop
specifically for horse stables (big horse
racing country over there) - it's the
primary crop. Straw may be a secondary
crop, but it is definitely not a waste
product - and if we are considering the
goal that folks in this thread have stated
of dramatically increasing straw
construction by adoption into the
mainstream by prefab applications and
other means, then we are talking about a
future in which there is a lot more straw
being grown for buildings (primary or
secondary crop). <br>
<br>
By removing all that carbon from the soil
and not tilling in to restore soil
nutrients and tilth, we are having a
net-negative impact on soil health and
ecology - inherently unsustainable. If we
till back in and/or cover crop, we reduce
net yield, requiring more farmland or
production somehow. There is already a
growing concern in this part of the world
about the competition for farmland between
food and energy production (i.e.
corn-based ethanol); if we add a surge in
straw construction to that, coupled with
reduction in yields due to diminishing
soil productivity, and throw in some
climate change-induced natural
disasters...whoa, ok, not trying to get
too down here, I honestly don't think that
straw is in scarcity danger right now -
far from it. But I do believe that source
is an issue we should be taking very
seriously, if we are planning for the long
haul - around here, the sources of our
straw are not stable for the long term
(I'm not even sure how much longer I can
get long straws, with all the farms
switching over to chop-straw combines),
and there is certainly none of it going to
waste. If we truly want to scale up in
production, we need to be able to ensure
availability of our raw materials, and I
don't feel too secure in that right now.
Of course, this involves major paradigm
shift in industrial agriculture
production...good thing we're all such a
bunch of fired-up change-makers. Maybe
we'll be using the PAKSBAB-style bale
press and go back to gathering field
grasses, old-school Nebraska-style, after
the revolution...<br>
<br>
So, are farms in CA/out west still burning
straw? I thought that was banned years
ago...is there really such a glut of straw
out there that it's still considered
waste? Regionalism is fascinating...<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Jacob<br>
<br>
<div>On 12/20/13, 8:01 PM, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:carolatkn@aol.com"
target="_blank"> carolatkn@aol.com</a>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"> <font
color="black" face="arial">
<div>Sorry John, but straw is
ABSOLUTELY NOT a waste product - its
greatest value is as a soil improver
- I can't stress how important that
is - even if many "modern" farmers
don't seem to agree these days. Farm
soils have lost so much organic
matter over the last 50 years that
it is very a scary situation indeed.
Of course, locking up carbon in a
super insulated straw wall is the
second best thing - and it would
be sustainable to use straw for this
wonderful purpose every third year
or so - in an ideal world!</div>
<div> </div>
<div>best wishes</div>
<div>Carol Atkinson</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.strawcottage.co.uk/"
target="_blank">www.strawcottage.co.uk</a>
</div>
<div
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica">
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: John Swearingen <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jswearingen@skillful-means.com"
target="_blank">
<jswearingen@skillful-means.com></a><br>
To: Global Straw Building Network <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com"
target="_blank">
<GSBN@sustainablesources.com></a><br>
Sent: Fri, 20 Dec 2013 19:50<br>
Subject: Re: [GSBN] The EU wants 5%
strawbuildings by 2020 says the
Economist..<br>
<br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Jacob's points
about supporting local and
sustainable business are well
taken, but these are choices
that we can make, with our
pocketbooks, in order to bring
about better communities.
<div>
<div>That said, I think the
bottom line is that straw is
a<i> waste product</i>.
Unlike wood, it's not grown
for construction, and it has
limited use--for erosion
control (composting) or to
spread over muddy paddocks
for livestock. Extra straw,
and there is a lot, would
likely be burned. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Following the very sound
sustainability principle of
"highest and best use", <b>any</b> use
of bales for construction
involves taking garbage and
putting it to good use and
that's worthy of support.
When you consider that bales
sequester carbon, that's an
extra benefit. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>John (Trash Talk)
Swearingen</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed,
Dec 18, 2013 at 6:37 PM, Jacob
Deva Racusin <span dir="ltr">
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:buildnatural@googlemail.com"
target="_blank">buildnatural@googlemail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
<div text="#000000"
bgcolor="#FFFFFF">Valentina,<br>
<br>
I appreciate your
perspective. This is a
conversation that has come
up a number of times in
our courses and
conversations with our
colleagues - namely, the
roll of agribusiness in
providing feedstock for
our construction. I think
'greenwashing' may be a
bit strong, when I compare
to the claims of the
concrete and foam
industries as being
'green'. That said, the
impacts must be
considered, and the
benefits of using straw in
regards to deep ecological
and social impact should
not be overstated if the
source of straw is not
being considered. We have
access to straw that is
grown from medium- and
small-scale farms, which
come closer to the higher
potential of working with
this material. It is very
analogous to working with
wood -the same framing
member can come from a
local sawyer practicing
sustainable silviculture,
or from a
genetically-engineered
clear-cut plantation pine
shipped across the world.<br>
<br>
>From data I've seen,
even industrial straw is a
fraction of the embodied
carbon of other common
forms of insulation, so
context is relevant when
evaluating materials for
deep impact. You make an
especially good point
about the danger of
introducing this material
to industrial scale, and
losing more of the
benefits/exacerbating the
liabilities in favor of
snapping the technology
into the mold of
industrial
housing/building
development. We would do
well as a community not to
lose sight of the
importance of scale, and
as you mention the
relevance of the social
benefits of working with
straw. At the same time,
access to a much larger
market and making the
technology available to
many more people is an
arguable net gain, even if
there is a sacrifice for
environmental and social
impact in production -
again, compared to the
alternatives. I think
there is room for both,
and as long as we continue
to engage in the debate, I
have confidence that we'll
continue to move the ball
further down the field.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Jacob<span><font
color="#888888"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
Jacob Deva Racusin <br>
Co-Owner<br>
New Frameworks Natural
Design/Build<br>
<br>
Author, The Natural
Building Companion<br>
Chelsea Green Press,
2012<br>
<br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
value="+18027827783">(802)
782-7783</a><br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jacob@newframeworks.com" target="_blank">jacob@newframeworks.com</a><br>
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.newframeworks.com/" target="_blank">http://www.newframeworks.com</a></font></span>
<div><br>
<br>
<div>On 12/18/13, 12:43
PM, valentina maini
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">Martin,
John, Caroline, and
all
<div>as Herbert Gruber
recently suggested
on Leonardo group,
this article maybe
very well connected
with the EU funded
( eco-innovation) investigation
on @Modcell
....based in the UK
and with
BathUniversity
support </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I personally got
in touch with the
founder of this
panels in 2011 and
met with
professionals here
in spain that are
collaborating in
this EU funded
program of analysis
and implementation
of this "patent"
strawbale
panels....i've seen
fantastic software
and marketing tools
they were presenting
at Eco event in
London 2011</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From my point of
view and with very
recent experiences
on professional
development of
strawbale in Spain i
think and see this
article as a call
for action to
present the real
value of strawbale
and strawbale
network..that goes,
in my view, very
much beyond the
"simple" energy
efficiency issue...</div>
<div>and i very
important reminder
for all that straw
is not at all a
really safe for the
environment
product...since is a
byproduct of one of
the most
contaminated human
"fabric"...as
industrial
agriculture ...as
very well reminds
Luc Foissac in is
great book on
strawbale...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>from my point of
view...The very big
risk/reality at the
moment is that straw
is used very much as
a "simple"
greenwash.....</div>
<div> and even if i
really celebrate the
greenwash for what
it means in terms of
getting rid of toxic
materials...i think
and personally value
much more the social
innovation related
to strawbale... the
ability of people
and networks to
create opportunity
and solutions.... </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>what is happening
is just "business as
usual" with a more
eco-material... what
the strawbale
network gave me me
is much much more
than simple
"strawbale tech"...
i learned.... thank
to you all.... the
value and the tools
to innovate and
collaborate and
manage
uncertainty.... and
adapt and always
look for the best
solution for people,
planet...and even
profit... </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>and personally
i'm really convinced
that the risk for
environment and
quality (equality)
in our society is so
big....., that is
not enough anymore
to "change"
material... and hope
that the strawbale
network (that i
value for itself)
can make a huge step
and show the world
that strawbalers are
bringing much more
to community and
economy that a
"simple" prefab
panel for passive
house... a huge step
to defend as the
real value the
mission and vision
of all the pioneers
in strawbale .... at
least this is how i
see you all ...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>hope my english
is good
enough...and...my
mind is getting
clear on this issue
just in this lasts
months... so hope
this comments are of
some interest for
you ;-)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>best regards to
you all, valentina</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div><span><span>
<div><span>
<div><span
style="color:rgb(136,136,136)">Valentina
Maini</span><br>
<font
color="#888888">italy-spain<br>
</font><span>
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</blockquote>
<br>
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</div>
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-- <br>
<font face="'trebuchet ms',
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<br>
<div>-- <br>
Jacob Deva Racusin <br>
Co-Owner<br>
New Frameworks Natural Design/Build<br>
<br>
Author, The Natural Building Companion<br>
Chelsea Green Press, 2012<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28802%29%20782-7783"
value="+18027827783" target="_blank">(802)
782-7783</a><br>
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href="http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN"
target="_blank">http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<div><span
style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">Derek
Roff<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:derek@unm.edu"
target="_blank">derek@unm.edu</a><br>
<br>
</span></div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
GSBN mailing list
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com" target="_blank">GSBN@sustainablesources.com</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN" target="_blank">http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div>-- <br>
Jacob Deva Racusin <br>
Co-Owner<br>
New Frameworks Natural Design/Build<br>
<br>
Author, The Natural Building Companion<br>
Chelsea Green Press, 2012<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28802%29%20782-7783"
value="+18027827783" target="_blank">(802)
782-7783</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jacob@newframeworks.com"
target="_blank">jacob@newframeworks.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.newframeworks.com"
target="_blank">http://www.newframeworks.com</a></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
GSBN mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com">GSBN@sustainablesources.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN"
target="_blank">http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<font face="'trebuchet ms', sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:x-small"><font color="#666666">John
Swearingen<br>
Skillful Means Design & Construction<br>
2550 9th Street Suite 209A<br>
Berkeley, CA 94710<br>
510.849.1800 phone<br>
510.849.1900 fax<br>
<br>
Web Site: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.skillful-means.com" target="_blank">http://www.skillful-means.com</a><br>
Blog: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://skillfulmeansdesign.wordpress.com"
target="_blank">https://skillfulmeansdesign.wordpress.com</a></font></span></font>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
GSBN mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com">GSBN@sustainablesources.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN">http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
Jacob Deva Racusin <br>
Co-Owner<br>
New Frameworks Natural Design/Build<br>
<br>
Author, The Natural Building Companion<br>
Chelsea Green Press, 2012<br>
<br>
(802) 782-7783<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jacob@newframeworks.com">jacob@newframeworks.com</a><br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.newframeworks.com">http://www.newframeworks.com</a></div>
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