<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>You all are amazing. And I'm probably just sneaking under the wire of being in the virtual straw bale dog house- throw out a question and then be buried in meetings for two days while others engage in this great dialogue :). If Bill had the softstrawware to build that dog house, I might just be in it. </div><div><br></div><div><div>My personal experience agrees with John's comments about the plaster modulating diurnal swings very well (and more than longer term temp swings)- I even had the chance to live in my first home at 8,200' elevation unplastered then later plastered through pretty harsh winter. The larger diurnal temperature swings before plaster certainly was affected by some increased air leakage, but my gut said it was the addition of mass that made such a difference, something on the order of 20 degree swings before to 5 degrees after if my memory from 18 years ago is any good. </div><div><br></div><div>To be more specific than my first email, this project is in mild mountain climate at 5900 feet elevation, with annual maximum average temp of 59F, minimum of 23 F, annual heating degree days (Tot Degrees >65) of 8,749 annual cooling degree days of 62. So, while not the "cold European climate", it's also not the Melbourne climate. </div><div><br></div><div>The scale of the project suggest that we will see a higher floor area to wall area ratio as Derek mentions, but given the layout, we will definitely have a smaller percentage of direct gain. </div><div><br></div><div><span></span>Given that the client has expressed a strong desire for cool indoor summer temperatures (63-65 F), a cooling tower has been included. However, it seems that even with extensive modeling, we might come back to Derek's comment that "To the extent that covering the walls with barn wood will diminish the effective thermal mass, as Laura describes, it could have a significant impact on comfort in the summer," which would be an unfortunate loss of performance. While the High Mass example in Bohdan's great article doesn't achieve summer low temps in this range, it would be interesting to add cooling tower use in that model to see if that brings it down in those climates. </div><div><br></div><div>John, I used to use Energy 10 and was trained in that years ago, but given that it's no longer part of my experience, is there anything you can speak to in modeling mass with the current version? </div><div><br></div><div>And David A., I've always loved what this study tells us about lag time in a sb wall. Thanks for writing it, and for re-sharing this. I had not remembered the recognition of sb heat capacity in the paper. What's intriguing is the comment about choosing thicknesses of plaster and straw to play with lag time. </div><div><br></div><div>I have more on my mind, but having had a very long day, will use this as my catch up on this great thread, and to stay out of that dog house Bill might be planning. </div><div><br></div><div>Laura</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class="MsoNormal"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#4C721D" face="'Times New Roman'"><b><i><div class="MsoNormal"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#4C721D" face="'Times New Roman'"><b><i><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-variant: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class="MsoNormal"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#4C721D" face="'Times New Roman'"><b><i><font class="Apple-style-span"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#4C721D" face="'Times New Roman'"><b><i><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; "><div class="MsoNormal"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="color: rgb(76, 114, 29); font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: 16px; font-style: italic; font-weight: bold; ">Laura Bartels</span></div><div class="MsoNormal"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#4C721D" face="'Times New Roman'" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 16px; "><b><i>GreenWeaver Inc.</i></b></span></font></div><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color: rgb(76, 114, 29); "><b><i>520 S. Third St., Suite 5 </i></b></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; "><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; color: rgb(76, 114, 29); "><b><i>Carbondale, CO 81623<br>970-379-6779<br><a href="http://www.greenweaverinc.com">www.greenweaverinc.com</a></i></b></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 16px; "><br></span></div></i></b></font></font></i></b></font></div></span></i></b></font></div></i></b></font></div></span></span></div></span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; "></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><span><img height="99" width="201" id="1ae7076e-e92f-4d63-8c31-a74f4fb3a137" apple-width="yes" apple-height="yes" src="cid:BEE497CD-A097-4C96-B8DC-20DC694F15B3@gateway.2wire.net"></span>
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<br><div><div>On May 7, 2013, at 7:25 PM, John Swearingen wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px"> At some point, adding more thermal mass will have little effect, because of the low temperature swing and the resulting low delta T across the thermal mass. After this point, adding more thermal mass wouldn't help much, but I'm not seeing how it would have a negative effect, either. Unless the residents found consistent temperatures monotonous. </span></blockquote>
<div><br></div><div style="">We've recently completed a pretty high mass house. Strawbale with lime/cement plaster, and an<a href="http://www.airfloor.com/"> Air Floor</a> system which consists of 6" of tunnels sitting on a 4" slab and drenched in concrete with a 2" topping slab. Conditioned air is sent first through the floor, where it drops a large portion, about 2/3, of its heat into the slab, which becomes a radiant heater/cooler, and the rest is blown into the room. The building temperature is remarkably stable. We took measurements this winter when the temperature went from a maximum 58F to about 30F at night. The owners turned off the heating system at 9-10pm when the bedroom was 68F. In the morning it had dropped only one degree, even though the room has an abundance of glazing: French doors and a large window seat. </div>
<div style=""><br></div><div style="">The high mass floor system has one complication, noted last fall: the system is slow to respond in the short term. The owners have not shaded their glazing, so when rooms get a lot of direct gain, the HVAC system does not immediately cool the room, as a conventional system would do. However, the rooms also don't get very hot, because the mass absorbs the solar gain--and we're only talking about a 3-4 F rise.</div>
<div style=""><br></div><div style="">John "Hot Air" Swearingen</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:23 PM, Derek Stearns Roff <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:derek@unm.edu" target="_blank">derek@unm.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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Thanks for posting the article on thermal mass, Bohdan. I found it very interesting. Based on the data it contains, I have a few comments relevant to Laura's situation.
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<div>As John mentioned, the article emphasizes that it is addressing thermal mass with direct solar exposure/gain. However, I didn't see anything quantifying what amount of time the sun needs to shine on each bit of thermal mass floor and wall each day, in
order to attain the listed results. As the sun moves across the sky, some parts of the floor and walls will receive direct sunlight for only a few minutes, while other locations will be in the sun for several hours per day. The amount of furniture, area
rugs, and wall decorations will also affect how much sun shines on thermal mass. I'm thinking that as the amount of time in the sun decreases, the needed surface area of the thermal mass needs to increase, to get the same thermal mass effect. The total mass
of the thermal mass might need to increase a bit, too. </div>
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<div>At 6000 sq ft/560m3, Laŭra's project will likely have a higher floor area to wall area ratio than smaller houses. By itself, this might decrease the importance of the thermal mass in the walls. However, depending on the number of stories and the floor
plan, a large project might have a smaller percentage of floor and wall area accessible to direct sun. That would increase the importance of maximizing the surface area of the thermal mass. <br>
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<div>Laura didn't say where this project will be built, but I'm guessing it might have a climate closer to the "cold European climate" listed in the article, rather than to the alternative Melbourne figures. The article quotes Vale and Vale as suggesting 1,200kg
of thermal mass for each square meter of floor area. It's worth noting that all this thermal mass could not be in the floor. If it were, the thermal mass floor would need to be about .5m/20" thick. Not only is that absurd from a construction perspective,
but much of the mass in a slab that thick would not respond to daily temperature variation. My reading is that walls have to be involved in the thermal mass equation, to get the results described. </div>
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<div>At the top right of page 7, the article says that temperature modeling for the three reference building variations (low-mass, medium-mass, and high-mass) are predicted to have similar maximum temperatures. However, the numbers in the chart paint a different
picture, as I see it. Table 3 shows the maximum temperature at the hottest part of the summer as 32 degrees C/90 degrees F for the low mass house, contrasted with 25 C/77 F for the high-mass house. To me, that's the difference between the average American
demanding air conditioning (or feeling that they are suffering), versus a temperature that many would find acceptable. 23 C/77 F is pretty comfortable, when the radiant surfaces (ceiling, walls and floors) are at a similar temperature or lower, as they would
be in a well-insulated home. That temperature can feel uncomfortable, if the radiant surfaces have heated up to 30 C/86 F or more. </div>
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<div>Table 3 also shows surprising figures for the morning lows in the hottest month. The low-mass building is predicted to be at 16 C/61 F on a summer morning. Some residents would be turning on the heat in the morning, and the air conditioning in the afternoon.
The high-mass building will get down to a comfortable 20 C/68 F on the same summer morning. To the extent that covering the walls with barn wood will diminish the effective thermal mass, as Laura describes, it could have a significant impact on comfort in
the summer. The winter figures indicate substantially greater differences between high-mass and low-mass temperature variations. I also conclude that Hobart has a pretty pleasant temperature range. </div>
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<div>I agree with David, that uninsulated thermal mass can easily be a liability. I'm not sure the same is true for well-insulated thermal mass. A large amount of thermal mass combined with a well-insulated building envelope will result in small daily temperature
variations. At some point, adding more thermal mass will have little effect, because of the low temperature swing and the resulting low delta T across the thermal mass. After this point, adding more thermal mass wouldn't help much, but I'm not seeing how
it would have a negative effect, either. Unless the residents found consistent temperatures monotonous. </div>
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<div>Derek</div>
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<div>On May 6, 2013, at 7:05 PM, Bohdan Dorniak wrote:</div>
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<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Hi All<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">This is a note that has been published by the Australian Institute of Architects regarding Thermal Mass.<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I thought that you may find this interesting? Any comments John?? Laura??<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Bohdan Dorniak<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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<span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u> <u></u></span></div>
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<b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif"><span> </span><a href="mailto:GSBN-bounces@sustainablesources.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">GSBN-bounces@sustainablesources.com</a><span> </span>[mailto:<a href="mailto:GSBN-bounces@sustainablesources.com" target="_blank">GSBN-bounces@sustainablesources.com</a>]<span> </span><b>On
Behalf Of<span> </span></b>John Swearingen<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Tuesday, 7 May 2013 9:38 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span> </span>Global Straw Building Network<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span> </span>Re: [GSBN] Modeling or measuring mass effect of interior plaster<u></u><u></u></span></div>
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Laura,<u></u><u></u></div>
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Modeling thermal mass is generally difficult because of the large variable conditions of heat transfer related to air circulation. We've done this in Energy-10 with some success, and usually our projections have come out on the conservative side--the temperature
swings have been less than we calculated. <u></u><u></u></div>
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The other very large variable is climate--temperatures and sunshine at different times of the year. Everyone I know who does this successfully had dialed it in from years of experience in one particular climate, with which they are familiar.<u></u><u></u></div>
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As to whether the walls make a difference, the short answer is, I think it makes a big difference, and that many of the lauded characteristics of thermal comfort in straw bale buildings may have as much to do with the thermal mass on the walls as with the
insulation. Modulated temperature swings can influence occupant behavior positively, reducing reliance on mechanical systems, over and above straight Btu calculations.<u></u><u></u></div>
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The ultimate efficiency of thermal mass is tied to the heat-transfer mechanism for exchanging heat between the mass and the rest of the building (air). A floor slab is thick and of limited surface area; bale walls are thin with a much larger surface area.
So floor slabs are longer term storage, and walls function very effectively to modulate temperature swings on a short term (diurnal) cycle which can reduce loads on mechanical systems and increase comfort in passive buildings. I don't think there is too
much danger of over-massing, and haven't seen it in our buildings, because the relatively thin mass of the walls, backed by insulation and actively transferring heat, stays close to room temperature and so isn't felt as too cold or hot.<u></u><u></u></div>
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Temperature modulation can result in significant changes in how mechanical heating and cooling are used by the occupants: if the building is slow to cool off at night, for instance, the occupants don't call for heat early in the evening. The key here is responsiveness,
which is related to surface area. Mass walls also help to distribute Btu's somewhat between warmer and cooler areas of the building: cooler walls will absorb heat more readily than warm walls, so they are somewhat of a magnet for warm air when located in cooler
areas of the building. <u></u><u></u></div>
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Well, hope this helps!<u></u><u></u></div>
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John.<u></u><u></u></div>
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On Mon, May 6, 2013 at 12:39 PM, Laura Bartels <<a href="mailto:laura@greenweaver.com" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">laura@greenweaver.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></div>
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Hello All,<u></u><u></u></div>
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I'm writing to ask if anyone has had experience with modeling or measuring the mass effect of interior plaster of bale walls versus other interior finishes. This has come up on a straw bale project in design phase I've involved in which has a net zero energy
goal. The project is large, about 6000 sf. The owners are interested in barnwood interior wall surfaces (over plaster) on all or some walls. With the net zero goal, the question is what we might lose in having wood rather than exposed plaster. There will
be adobe floors which will already provide direct and indirect gain mass. <u></u><u></u></div>
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Anyone tackled this topic or have a guess about how to look at this? Our team has talked about estimating direct vs. indirect gain wall surfaces through sun studies in ArchiCAD as a starting point. <u></u><u></u></div>
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Looking forward to hearing any thoughts on this.<u></u><u></u></div>
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<b><i><span style="color:rgb(76,114,29)">Laura Bartels</span></i></b><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(76,114,29)"><u></u><u></u></span></div>
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--<span> </span><br>
<span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(102,102,102)">John Swearingen<br>
Skillful Means Design & Construction<br>
2550 9th Street Suite 209A<br>
Berkeley, CA 94710<br>
<a href="tel:510.849.1800" value="+15108491800" target="_blank">510.849.1800</a> phone<br>
<a href="tel:510.849.1900" value="+15108491900" target="_blank">510.849.1900</a> fax<br>
<br>
Web Site: <span> </span><a href="http://www.skillful-means.com/" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">http://www.skillful-means.com</a><br>
Blog: <span> </span><a href="https://skillfulmeansdesign.wordpress.com/" style="color:blue;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">https://skillfulmeansdesign.wordpress.com</a></span><u></u><u></u></div>
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<span><EDG_76_AuSES-2_Tas_ThermaL_Mass.pdf></span>_______________________________________________<br>
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</span></blockquote>
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<br>
<div><span style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">Derek
Roff<br>
<a href="mailto:derek@unm.edu" target="_blank">derek@unm.edu</a><br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><font face="'trebuchet ms', sans-serif"><span style="font-size:x-small"><font color="#666666">John Swearingen<br>Skillful Means Design & Construction<br>
2550 9th Street Suite 209A<br>Berkeley, CA 94710<br>510.849.1800 phone<br>510.849.1900 fax<br><br>Web Site: <a href="http://www.skillful-means.com/" target="_blank">http://www.skillful-means.com</a><br>Blog: <a href="https://skillfulmeansdesign.wordpress.com/" target="_blank">https://skillfulmeansdesign.wordpress.com</a></font></span></font>
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