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Hi Andy,<br>
<br>
Here are three photos of larger sb homes. The first one has a three
story tower, which is the first and only time I've gone that high.
As I recall it was 32ft to the top of the wall. The second one is
the first permitted two story load bearing home in Ontario, and the
third is a two story prefab home. Both of these are 18-20 feet tall.<br>
<br>
All three were built platform-style, with floor joists typically
hung from the interior face of the top plate on the bale wall.<br>
<br>
Hope this helps...<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
On 13-04-05 6:42 AM, Andy Horn wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:003401ce31ea$3bf9ad90$b3ed08b0$@co.za"
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<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hi
all <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
am curious if any of you out there can send me any info /
links
to photos of large straw bale structures ....I am looking to
put a quick presentation
together showing precedent of various 2 and 3 storey straw
bale structures as
well as any larger type cellars, warehouses, public
buildings etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Also
in terms of in-fill structures have there been any studies
done on how high one can build with straw bales......the
width to height ratio given
in the proposed international straw bale building code is
6:1 width to
height........does this same ratio still apply to non-load
bearing structures
and have there been any studies that look at if this still
applies with bales
laid flat vs bales laid on edge....as well as the difference
ones plaster makes
to this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
would be interested to know if any studies have been
conducted
on the influence of how the walls are pinned and how they
are plastered etc as
to how this would influence the slenderness ratio......for
instance I would
think that if one had an earth plaster for instance which
was very well bonded into
the straw (as with say a pre-dipping method where one has up
to 80mm of earth
fused with the outer layer of straw) then this would also
impact on the
stability of the wall as would the type of pinning used
internal vs external
pinning etc..... <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Many
thanks <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Kind
regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Andy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img
id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:part1.08040201.09060805@endeavourcentre.org"
alt="Logo-and-Address" height="124" width="600"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:GSBN-bounces@sustainablesources.com">GSBN-bounces@sustainablesources.com</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:GSBN-bounces@sustainablesources.com">mailto:GSBN-bounces@sustainablesources.com</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Feile Butler<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 22 March 2013 09:07 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Global Straw Building Network<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [GSBN] Fw: The Mechanical Ventilation
Debate<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I'm
forwarding
this for Robert Riversong. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">-----
Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:#E4E4E4"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:housewright@ponds-edge.net"
title="housewright@ponds-edge.net">Robert Riversong</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">To:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:feile@mudandwood.com"
title="feile@mudandwood.com">Feile Butler</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Cc:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:graeme@ecodesign.co.nz"
title="graeme@ecodesign.co.nz">Graeme
North</a> ; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jfstraube@uwaterloo.ca"
title="jfstraube@uwaterloo.ca">John Straube</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Sent:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
Friday, March 22,
2013 3:33 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Subject:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
Re: [GSBN] The
Mechanical Ventilation Debate<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm" valign="top">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Feile,
et al:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">Thank
you for using my statements to continue this important
dialogue. Feel free to forward this to the list as
well (and I would accept an invitation to join this
group if it were offered).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The
"divide" that John Straube describes is not
necessarily between those who choose to offer the best
solutions to the majority who are immersed in the
current (and almost certainly unsustainable) paradigm
of complexity, control and comfort – and those who
seek to change the cultural paradigm (which is a
near-impossible task). It is between those who, with
the very best of intentions, support and encourage the
current paradigm by offering "best practices"
consistent with it – and those who understand that the
current paradigm is very close to a global collapse
which will force dramatic social and technological
change (the only way fundamental change has ever
occurred in evolutionary or cultural history).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">There
is a long and noble history of the prophetic Luddite
tradition which has challenged the "value-neutral"
notion of technology, including such notables as
Oswald Spengler, Aldous Huxley, Paul Goodman, Leopold
Kohr, George Orwell, Arthur Koestler, Herbert Marcuse,
Jacques Ellul, Lewis Mumford, Marshall McLuhan, E.F.
Schumacher, Ivan Illich, Wendell Berry, Theodore
Roszak, Edward René David Goldsmith, Joseph Tainter,
Jerry Mander, Neil Postman, Kirkpatrick Sale, Ted
Kaczynski, Morris Berman, Ronald Wright, Nicholas
Carr, and Spencer Wells. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">And
the current crop of "the best and brightest" who are
warning about the impending global crisis and
inevitable Shift include Michael T. Klare (Five
Colleges professor of Peace and World Security
Studies, defense correspondent of The Nation magazine,
and on the boards of directors of Human Rights Watch
and the Arms Control Association), Martin Rees
(British cosmologist and astrophysicist, Astronomer
Royal, Master of Trinity College, Cambridge, past
President of the Royal Society of London), Richard A.
Posner (American jurist, legal theorist, and
economist, Senior Lecturer at the University of
Chicago Law School, and the most cited legal scholar
of the 20th century), James Howard Kunstler (American
author, lecturer and social critic, former staff
writer for Rolling Stone), Jared Diamond (American
scientist and author, Professor of Geography at the
University of California, Los Angeles), James Lovelock
(British scientist, environmentalist and futurologist,
best known for proposing the Gaia hypothesis), Gus
Speth (co-founder of the Natural Resources Defense
Council, Chairman of the Council on Environmental
Quality for Jimmy Carter, Professor of environmental
and constitutional law at Georgetown University;
founder of the World Resources Institute, senior
adviser to President-elect Bill Clinton's transition
team, Administrator of the United Nations Development
Programme and Chair of the United Nations Development
Group, dean of the Yale School of Forestry and
Environmental Studies at Yale University and Professor
in the Practice of Environmental Policy, now professor
at Vermont Law School). <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">The
natural building community has long been true pioneers
in developing and demonstrating alternative
"appropriate" technologies for such essentials as
shelter. We don't change the paradigm by asking people
to put on an extra sweater – that impropriety may have
cost Jimmy Carter a second term – or do without
conveniences that we have been conditioned to believe
are necessary for our well-being. But we can make such
a paradigm-shift possible by manifesting living
examples of lower-tech lifestyles that demonstrably
increase personal freedom and well-being. People
change when alternatives become visible, and it is the
role of the pioneer to create or provide such
alternatives.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">As
one who has been designing and building somewhat
alternative shelters for the past 30 years (including
the first state-approved indoor site-built composting
toilet in Massachusetts in 1998, and some of the first
rubble-trench and shallow frost-protected foundations
under superinsulated homes built of local rough-sawn
lumber since 1987 – all with some form of low-tech
whole-house ventilation system), I would hate to see
the even more pioneering natural building community
devolve into the mainstream paradigm (as is already
happening).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">If
James Howard Kunstler is right (see his wonderfully
prophetic novel: <i>World Made by Hand</i>), and I
believe he is, then we will soon be forced to resort
to the simpler and more hand-made technologies of our
great-grandparents. If at least some of us don't begin
to relearn and exemplify those technologies today,
then we will have a much more difficult time adapting
when the Shift hits the (ventilation) fan.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">-
Robert<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--- On <b>Fri, 3/22/13, Feile Butler <i><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:feile@mudandwood.com"><feile@mudandwood.com></a></i></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
From: Feile Butler <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:feile@mudandwood.com"><feile@mudandwood.com></a><br>
Subject: [GSBN] The Mechanical Ventilation Debate<br>
To: "Global Straw Building Network"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com"><GSBN@sustainablesources.com></a><br>
Date: Friday, March 22, 2013, 9:14 AM<o:p></o:p></p>
<div id="yiv905189692">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Hi
John</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I
accept that you were</span> <em>"implicitly
discussing the 99% of homes 1 billion people
live in the western live in. There are
literally billions more people lined up trying
to build and get into this type of housing, so
the conversation, and the understanding of
different types of housing is really important
for the environment."</em><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I
also know the mechanical ventilation debate
has opened up a much bigger discussion than
the original posts intended. We are looking at
this from different angles.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">The
big wheel is turning. You say that 99% of
people want/need passivehaus housing. The
supposition is that this is the direction
that the construction industry/public
desire is going and it has gathered so much
momentum that it cannot be stopped. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">To</span>
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">borrow
from Robert Riversong's email again -<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><em>That we don't have
much of a choice today in the necessity of
mechanical ventilation in well-insulated
homes is evidence of the cul-de-sac that
our "progress" has driven us into.</em><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I
suppose I am questioning (maybe naively and
idealistically) whether there can be a shift
in societal expectation? </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">I
know when people started building with straw
bales, the wider masses thought they were
crazy. It was so simple and so cheap - it
couldn't be possible!!! Now it is a
well-established, well-researched method of
building. Just because the "mad" 1% were doing
it, didn't put them off. And with time it
continues to gain a bigger and bigger foothold
in the mainstream.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">A
lot of our work is about bringing people back
to simplicity - to start with the people - to
change their perceptions - and then a
different type of building becomes possible.
This type of work may only be affecting the 1%
at the moment (maybe even less), but there is
potential for it to grow. I suppose I am
trying to say that it is important that we do
keep other options open - that there is not
just one holy grail. (And I accept that this
is not what the original thread was about).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">If
we decide to hang on to the wheel and turn
with it, then it is critically important that
the best quality buildings are produced for
this style of construction - which is what you
are promoting. I suppose some of us are
deciding to jump off the wheel (and hope it
doesn't roll over us and squash us to pieces).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Hmmmmm</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Feile</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Féile
Butler</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">MRIAI
B.Arch Dip. Arch Conservation Grade III</span></b><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Courier
New"; color:#990000">Mud and Wood</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Grange
Beg, Skreen, Co. Sligo, Ireland</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">T:
+353 (0) 71 930 0488 </span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">M:
+353 (0) 86 806 8382</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black">E : </span></b><b><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#0066CC"
lang="EN-US"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:feile@mudandwood.com">feile@mudandwood.com</a></span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="yiv905189692yui372341363713423688239"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">W:</span></b></span><span
class="yiv905189692yui372341363713423688239"><b><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black">
</span></b></span><span
class="yiv905189692yui372341363713423688239"><b><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.mudandwood.com"
target="_blank"><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;
color:#0066CC">www.mudandwood.com</span></a></span></b></span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
GSBN mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="/mc/compose?to=GSBN@sustainablesources.com">GSBN@sustainablesources.com</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN"
target="_blank">http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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</td>
</tr>
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</table>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
GSBN mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com">GSBN@sustainablesources.com</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN">http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Chris Magwood
Director, Endeavour Centre
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.endeavourcentre.org">www.endeavourcentre.org</a></pre>
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