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The new book The Natural Building Companion is an excellent
resource. Contains great building science but puts it forward in a
way that newcomers can comprehend.<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
On 13-03-21 5:31 PM, PennElys Droz wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAB5TYR72rBT8TrP=ph=YY8dn-sAWsDzb+zMYmm-2bwD6AE0H9g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">Hey all! Ive been loving this ventilation discussion
- thank you all very much...notes taken, and will continue to be
taken!
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On another thread, Im developing a sustainable construction
weeklong hands on intensive for Native professionals and tribes.
Any ideas on text that would be comprehensive, yet cover
basics? Im looking at Dan Chiras' The New Ecological Home.
What else? We are developing our own specific curriculum, but
want to purchase texts for the participants. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks!</div>
<div>PennElys Droz, Sustainable Nations</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.sustainablenations.org">www.sustainablenations.org</a></div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:pennelys@sustainablenations.org">pennelys@sustainablenations.org</a><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 6:14 AM, John
Straube <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jfstraube@gmail.com" target="_blank">jfstraube@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
The problem with airflow windows, which have been around for
30 years or more, is that the heat recovery is only as
efficient as an HRV during sunny hours. On a 24 hour basis
in winter, the heat recovery (defined as the ratio of the
energy content of the incoming temperature and outgoing air,
which is leaking out somewhere) is not as good as a good HRV
and a triple glazed window. If you couple these with an
heat pump to extract heat from the air you exhaust, these
systems can be equal or better than a good HRV.<br>
Of course, you need one such window in every room to get
the air to each room.<br>
A good HRV with good TG windows seems a lot cheaper and a
lot simpler...<br>
<div>
<div class="h5">On 2013-03-12, at 8:40 AM, Caroline Meyer
White <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:hojtpaastraa@gmail.com">hojtpaastraa@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> Hi there on the other side of the pond. (Is that a
general North American expression, or just my
grandmother?)<br>
><br>
> In Denmark, a company is selling a "ventilation
window". I attached their flyer, it has some drawings,
though in Danish) It is developed from an old Russian
type of window, where you have two glass panes with
space in between - like 3-4 inches. The interior pane is
a well insulated double pane, and I believe that the
exterior is only a single layer pane. The frame is
engineered, both being a very high quality wood for
windows, but also with detailing breaking thermal
bridges. Now the secret about it, (not kept) is a vent
with a phase changing (I believe oil substance) at the
top and bottom. These vents do not have any energy
supply, but allow air to flow in between the panes FROM
the out side, entering at the bottom, when heat is
required in the building. The air is pre-heated between
the panes and reach a temperature of average 10 Celsius
above what it was before it entered - heated by the sun
hitting the outer pane and the heat loss going through
the inner pane.<br>
> In summer the flow goes the other way, and the
window helps cool down the building. The Technical
University of Denmark has made some calculations
determining that a window of the standard size (around
1,2 m2) on average of the four corners of the compass,
contributes with 425 kWh / year - that is the heat gain,
then comes the ventilation supply besides that.<br>
><br>
> We do not have air tightness tests on SB buildings
in Denmark yet. But this summer we are building a large
residential home with these windows and I am very eager
to see, if they will be sufficient to take care of the
ventilation demand, as I don't know the air stream I
haven't been able to calculate it.<br>
><br>
> Cheers<br>
> Caroline<br>
><br>
><br>
> 2013/3/11 Anthony Novelli <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:anthony.novelli@gmail.com">anthony.novelli@gmail.com</a>><br>
> Thanks Chris and August...<br>
><br>
> August, you bring up a point that might help me
clarify my question... I would assume in cold climate
situations that very little humidity would be required
to develop condensation on exterior glass, unless
employing some super efficient triple pane with thermal
breaks. Either way those surfaces will be much colder
than an earthen plaster or wood that spreads and holds
warmth. Part of what I'm considering is not how to
eliminate the condensation, but rather what to do with
it while it's there? Is there a window sill detail for
the interior that could accommodate the inevitable
moisture present? Perhaps these are already employed and
I'm out of the loop... just seen a lot of attention on
moisture on the outside of windows more than inside.
Even with excellent venting it seems a good passive
fail-safe.<br>
><br>
> Best,T<br>
><br>
><br>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 1<br>
> Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 11:00:58 -0600<br>
> From: August Hasz <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:hasz@reginc.com">hasz@reginc.com</a>><br>
> To: Global Straw Building Network <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com">GSBN@sustainablesources.com</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [GSBN] Can bale buildings be air
tight?- How to ventilate<br>
> discussion<br>
> Message-ID: <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:EB70F934-A014-47AA-9BE4-03F8E2FF2884@reginc.com">EB70F934-A014-47AA-9BE4-03F8E2FF2884@reginc.com</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>
><br>
> All-<br>
><br>
> First my bias: we engineer mechanical and
structural systems for buildings. So it goes without
saying see better results from adding a level of control
and predictability. With that bias comes a lot of
experience looking at under ventilated homes. The
discussion about building and occupant related
pollutants is a big factor, but misses another crucial
component- condensation due to moisture. The building
envelope may be permeable enough to survive, but in cold
climates condensation on windows is unavoidable without
controlling moisture in the home. In cold climates what
we see time and time again for a remotely tight home
(homes with 2 or 3 times the air leakage we are talking
about here) is significant condensation build-up
resulting in damaged materials and mold growth on
surfaces. This primarily at windows due to the cold
temps, but if there is any other location were the
insulation detail isn't right problems will happen there
as well.<br>
><br>
> We have had a number clients/friends decide to skip
the ventilation system over the years, and every time
what ends up happening is they are either forced to run
bathroom fans continuously in the winter (heat loss) or
find a way to retrofit an HRV or ERV in. That applies to
standard construction, bales, anything you build that is
somewhat well sealed. We all know retrofits are
expensive and to be avoided, so why leave it to chance?<br>
><br>
> This probably is not too much of a surprise in the
high-mountains of Crested Butte, Colorado, I assume the
effect is worse in Chris' backyard. I was however
surprised to see it is a big problem even in Moab. Moab
is where we go to thaw our bones out in the middle of
winter, it isn't cold right? We have been involved in
the Community Rebuilds project happening there (If you
aren't familiar, make sure and check out what Emily
Niehaus has started over there, we are now starting one
in our valley as well) and 3 homes had significant
condensation on windows this winter resulting in a mold
problem and damaged finishes. The result is that all
future CR homes will have HRV's.<br>
><br>
> From my perspective there is no debate: build it
tight, and ventilate right. Relaxing the tightness of
the home just leaves it up to chance- did I make it
leaky enough for the building envelope to dry? enough to
get the moisture out of the air? enough to get the
result of cooking (gas combustion and lots of other
pollutants)? It isn't' worth the risk to building
occupants or to the building. Do we want to have a
realization 10 years from now about health problems from
a homes that seemed leaky enough, but oops not quite?
Daily life makes pollutants, even if we are all watching
everything we do (breathing, showering, cooking). So now
I have a choice of how to ventilate: crack a window?
exhaust fan? or HRV/ERV? Only the heat/energy recovery
ventilator allows for exchanging air efficiently. The
others are fighting against all the great work you put
into the building envelope.<br>
><br>
> My 5 cents-<br>
><br>
> August<br>
><br>
> _________________________<br>
><br>
><br>
> August Hasz, PE, Principal<br>
> LEED AP<br>
> Resource Engineering Group, Inc.<br>
> Mail: Box 3725<br>
> Delivery: 502 Whiterock Ave., Suite 102<br>
> Crested Butte, CO 81224 USA<br>
> Tel: 970-349-1216<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:hasz@reginc.com">hasz@reginc.com</a><br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.reginc.com" target="_blank">www.reginc.com</a><br>
> _________________________<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> GSBN mailing list<br>
> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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target="_blank">http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Caroline, Tahir, Noah<br>
><br>
> Friland 11, 8410 Rønde, Denmark, tlf. <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28%2B45%29%2040%2076%2019%2080"
value="+4540761980">(+45) 40 76 19 80</a>, skypename:
caroline.meyer.white<br>
><br>
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> <Horn ventilations vindue
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<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">John Straube<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.JohnStraube.com" target="_blank">www.JohnStraube.com</a><br>
</font></span>
<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5"><br>
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</blockquote>
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<br>
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<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<font face="garamond, serif">PennElys Droz, M.S. Director</font>
<div><font face="garamond, serif"><br>
</font>
<div><font face="garamond, serif">Sustainable Nations</font></div>
<div><font face="garamond, serif">PO Box 3745</font></div>
<div><font face="garamond, serif">Tucson, AZ 85722</font></div>
<div><font face="garamond, serif"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.sustainablenations.org" target="_blank">www.sustainablenations.org</a></font></div>
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</font></div>
<div><font face="garamond, serif"><span
style="border-collapse:collapse;color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:'lucida
grande',tahoma,verdana,arial,sans-serif;font-size:11px;line-height:15px"><i>"If
you have come to help me, you are wasting your time. But
if you have come because your liberation is bound up
with mine, then let us work together." Lila Watson<span></span><span></span></i></span></font></div>
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</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Chris Magwood
Director, Endeavour Centre
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.endeavourcentre.org">www.endeavourcentre.org</a></pre>
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