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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Hi Graeme</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I agree with this too. I understand the passvihaus
drive to get us to use less and less fuel to keep ourselves comfortable. But I
think we are straying way off the mark when we need complicated mechanics
(driven by electricity) to achieve a "normal" level of comfort. And I worry too
about how many petro-chemical based products (full of toxins and embodied
energy) are used to achieve this.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I also worry about this
(consumer-led?) expectation for everyone in every corner of the world, in
all our different climates, to have a homogenised standard of "comfort". I like
the fact that we have different seasons where we live in Ireland. I like the
fact that we batten down the hatches winter and blossom again in Spring. I don't
think it's environmentally-friendly to expect to be able to wear a t-shirt in my
house on the coldest, dampest day of winter - because then I will have become
completely detached from my environment. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>When we built our cob and timber-frame/straw-bale
house, we made some decisions that forced us to work with nature. For example,
we designed our rainwater collection tank quite closely to our water usage needs
(we don't have any mains back-up). This ensures that the water is used and
replenished regularly and we avoid the need for a complicated ozonator to combat
stagnation. But it also means we are very aware of our rain patterns and how
important that rainfall is. Even in saturated Ireland, we can get our dry
spells. And when our friends lament the arrival of rain after a dry patch, we
rejoice. Because when you realise you depend on rain, you don't see it as a
negative that stops you going for a walk of makes the grocery shopping a little
more uncomfortable. You realise how necessary and wonderful it is. The same is
true is of our fuel. We hand-feed our stove with the left-overs from the
carpentry side of our work. It is free - so we don't get a big, surprise fuel
bill. But we have to work hard to chop that wood - we really appreciate its
value and we physically see how much wood we are using (and can calculate how
much more physical labour we will need to put in to keep our supply up). So much
of this physical or practical engagement with the environment around us has been
lost and I don't think that is a good thing. So many people have no idea where
their water or heating or even food comes from or where their waste goes to.
This disengagement with nature is not a good thing. And I worry that passivhaus
possibly encourages a little more of this type of disengagement and promotes
excessive expectations of controlled comfort.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I also think the simplest unmechanised solutions
work best. I worry about the idea that we would need to get our house "serviced"
every year in order for it to be safe. In Ireland, we had to bring in
the National Car Test to force people to service their cars. I don't know anyone
who services their boiler annually (as recommended). It's human nature. People
won't service their MHRV systems and won't understand the consequences if they
don't.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I don't have the answers. I know that research has
been done about the ability for earth to absorb toxins (if anyone can point me
towards actual papers on this, I would be very grateful). And considering that
the earth itself will not be off-gassing anything noxious, it makes sense that
this is a good route to explore the control of indoor air-quality. If the
building fabric itself can actually pull the toxins out of the internal
environment, then less ventilation will be required to control this aspect. I
also am aware of research done by Dr. Paul Jaquin of Bath University looking at
earth's ability to buffer humidity. Again, if we can control the RH in an
enviroment and get it down to optimum, we will feel more comfortable at lower
temperatures - i.e. we need to burn less fuel. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>There needs to be a balance between reducing our
energy usage, but by simple, fool-proof, non-toxic methods.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Having said all that, I also have a question about
sealants for windows. Has anybody any experience of using oakum, pine pitch with
hemp fibre? If so - how did it work for you? I'm looking for ideas on natural,
breathable sealants.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Thanks (and sorry for the rant)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Feile</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
<P
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style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-font-kerning: 14.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US">F<SPAN
style="mso-char-type: symbol; mso-symbol-font-family: Arial"><SPAN
style="mso-char-type: symbol; mso-symbol-font-family: Arial">é</SPAN></SPAN>ile
Butler</SPAN></B></P>
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class=MsoNormal><SPAN><STRONG><FONT size=1 face=Arial>MRIAI B.Arch Dip. Arch
Conservation Grade III</FONT></STRONG></SPAN></P>
<P
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style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 8pt; mso-font-kerning: 14.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-weight: bold"></SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #990000; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-font-kerning: 14.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><FONT
size=4 face="Courier New">Mud and Wood</FONT></SPAN></B></P>
<P
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style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #990000; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-font-kerning: 14.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"></SPAN></B><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt; mso-font-kerning: 14.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><FONT
size=1>Grange Beg, Skreen, </FONT></SPAN></B><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt; mso-font-kerning: 14.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN-US"><FONT
size=1>Co. Sligo, Ireland</FONT></SPAN></B></P>
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size=1></FONT></SPAN></B> </P>
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<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=graeme@ecodesign.co.nz href="mailto:graeme@ecodesign.co.nz">Graeme
North</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=GSBN@sustainablesources.com
href="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com">Global Straw Building Network</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 14, 2013 10:51
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [GSBN] Can bale buildings be
air tight?- How to ventilate</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Well my 2c worth is that in NZ we have a long history of cold
damp houses, in a very humid mostly temperate climate. (As it is at the
moment we are in the grip of the worst drought for over 70 years so any hint
of damp would be welcome.)
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>That aside - the best strategy I have found for drying out damp houses is
to use hygroscopic materials in the fabric of the house - and the best and
easiest is earthen walls or at least earthen plasters on any suitable
substrate such as dry wall. Of course to help get over cold we insulate
and that's where sheep's wool, or strawbale, or low density earthen
materials, come into their own. Condensation on windows and the
accompanying wet window sill syndrome simply vanishes. Needless to say
we don't have several cm of snow lying around but we do get some pretty good
frosts. Then reducing the size of houses and the size of windows in them
also helps. Lets face it, oversized badly orientated triple or quadruple
glazed self ventilating thermally broken windows are still not nearly as good
as a bit of well insulated wall at keeping heat in or out. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I suggest that the approach of using more and more of the earth's
resources to sort out these building issues may not be a good primary
design strategy, especially when it leads to oversize buildings, with
oversized windows needing mechanical ventilation systems etc., -
mechanical systems that are only as good as their energy supply. I
don't want to wake up dead of asphyxiation in an air tight building because
the electricity failed while I slept.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4 face=Arial><I><BR></I></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>This is not to dismiss some very good building science and its associated
research, but I am finding this conversation on interior air quality in
air tight buildings a bit disturbing when we end up with buildings so tightly
sealed that the occupants are at risk from either the building fabric itself,
or even more alarming, from their own breathing! People would be much
healthier outside the building under these circumstances. Interesting,
isn't it, how, if a person feels ill we often take them outside, where they
usually feel much better? We really do need protection from the built
environment. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>I prefer a design approach that minimises the use of expensive, resource
gobbling, and complicated materials and systems. A colleague of mine
sums it up thus:</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><I>The.... division is between those who fling open
their doors to embrace the day, and those who huddle behind triple glazing
worrying whether they are going to be comfortable</I><I
style="FONT-SIZE: large">. </I><FONT size=2>Tony Watkins
FNZIA </FONT></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV><SPAN style="BORDER-SPACING: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate"
class=Apple-style-span><SPAN
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class=Apple-style-span>
<DIV
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Graeme "Stirrer"</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Graeme North Architects</DIV>
<DIV>49 Matthew Road</DIV>
<DIV>RD1</DIV>
<DIV>Warkworth 0981</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.ecodesign.co.nz">www.ecodesign.co.nz</A></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>On 13/03/2013, at 5:04 AM, RT <<A
href="mailto:ArchiLogic@yahoo.ca">ArchiLogic@yahoo.ca</A>> wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Tony wrote:<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">Is there a window sill detail for the interior
that could accommodate the inevitable moisture
present?<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Carolyn wrote:<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">"ventilation window" ...two glass panes with space
in<BR>between - like 3-4
inches.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Tony;<BR><BR>Condensation on glass and
subsequent puddling on window sills would of course, best be addressed at
the source of the problem (in most cases just providing proper ventilation)
but for small amounts of water accumulation, a gutter detail can be useful.
In the commercial window industry, the aluminum extrusions (especially
with sloped glazing) typically include a condensation gutter.<BR><BR>For
residential windows it would be a matter of bending some corrosion-resistant
sheet metal flat stock to mimic the profile of the sash and glass stops of
the bottom rails to function as flashing to direct the runoff into a
collection gutter which may be integral to the flashing or a separate piece
of off-the shelf stock (ie J-trim ).<BR><BR>Also, for the sills themselves,
tile or stone set in a mortar bed rather than a moisture-susceptible
material such as wood.<BR><BR><BR>Carolyn;<BR><BR>I don't see a file
attachment for the windows you mentioned but they sound like the "laminar
flow" windows that were marketed over on this side of the pond in the early
1990s.<BR><BR>My objections to them back then were:<BR><BR>(1) Solar
pre-heating of ventilation supply air by the windows would only be happening
when the sun is shining and striking the equator-facing glass.<BR><BR>In
winter, at my latitude here near Ottawa, Ontario Canada that would be be
limited to effectively about the 4 hours around 10:00 to 14:00
hrs.<BR><BR>Problem is, in most normal households, there is no one home
during that time.<BR><BR>"Okay, so we'll just store that fresh air inside
until people get home to use it. Right ?"<BR><BR>I don't know if Denmark has
ventilation requirements written into the Code but there are minimal flow
volume guidelines in existence intended to ensure good indoor air quality
(see handbooks put out by ASHRAE or IHVE etc). These, like building
codes are minimal standards intended to provide a minimum level of health
safety. I assume that we on the GSBN list aim higher than the worst
buildings allowed by law.<BR><BR>Here in Canada we've had considerable
experience with trying to make well-insulated buildings and learned very
early in the process that making such buildings air-tight was an absolute
necessity and of course, the corollary being that proving an effective
ventilation strategy is also absolutely necessary and the R-2000 program
from the early 1980s taught us many lessons that are still valid
today.<BR><BR>The PassivHaus standard utilises most of the same principles
(with some variations on targets) but PH strikes me as being confused so I
won't talk about it here.<BR><BR>The CAN/CSA-F326 Standard (first published
in 1989 and revised in 1991) is one of most comprehensive available on the
subject of ventilation requirements and it lists the
following:<BR><BR>==============Copied material =================<BR>Table
1. Ventilation Capacity<BR><BR>Room<SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span> </SPAN><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>Capacity, L/s<BR>Master bedroom <SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>10<BR>Other bedrooms
<SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>5<BR>Living room <SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>5<BR>Dining room <SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>5<BR>Family room <SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>5<BR>Recreation room
<SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>5<BR>Basement <SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>10<BR>Other habitable
rooms<SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span> </SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>5<BR>Kitchen <SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>5<BR>Bathroom
or<BR>water closet room <SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>5<BR>Laundry <SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>5<BR>Utility room <SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>5<BR>=================== end of copied material
=================<BR><BR>In 1994, a study was done for the Energy Efficiency
Div., Residential Program, Energy Technology Branch CANMET, Dept of Natural
Resources Canada (now NRCan)<BR><BR>"Indoor Air Quality and Ventilation
Rates in R-200 Houses"<BR><BR>which found that most owners of R-2000
certified homes were operating their heat recovery ventilators (HRVs) at 75%
the rate specified by the F326 Standard with no deterioration in IAQ and
recommended that the lower rate be adopted for R-2000 certified
homes.<BR><BR>Recently on the Greenbuilding list in a thread on the topic of
ventilation, WatJohn mentioned some similar numbers (ie lower rate than
those specified by F326) as a guideline:<BR><BR> (per
WatJohn) 7.5 cfm (~3.6 L/s) per occupant + 0.1 cfm per sq foot floor
area<BR><BR>... which, if you crunch the numbers will yield a "NO!" to the
question posed (re: storing solar pre-heated fresh air) -- the point being
that depending upon the degree of air-tightness of the building, there are
certain minimal ventilation requirements that must be met or there will be
unacceptably high levels of pollutants which will have deleterious effects
on the health of the building's occupants.<BR><BR>Condensation on windows is
just the most visual and most easily-addressed indicator that the house is
suffering from poor ventilation. It is the "invisible" pollutants that
are more worrisome -- CO2 and VOCs.<BR><BR>The other thing that is troubling
(to me anyway) is that we're only just now having this discussion on this
List when the resources to address these questions have been readily
available for the past three decades or so, pretty much pre-dating the
current "SB Revival".<BR><BR>The need for air-tight construction with
well-insulated buildings and the need for effective ventilation strategies
for air-tight buildings does not have one set of requirements for buildings
made of conventional materials and another set for buildings made of natural
materials simply because the natural processes involved don't make the
distinction.<BR><BR>That is to say, since the resources to address these
issues already exist and these days are quite likely accessible with a few
mouse clicks, there is no need for willful naivite or missions to re-invent
the wheel. It's okay to transfer that knowledge to SBC and
NatBuild.<BR><BR>No doubt there will be arguments to the effect "We don't
want no stinking mechanical ventilation gizmos just so we can breathe ..."
but that's a non-starter.<BR><BR>What's necessary are the ventilation rates
to ensure health.<BR><BR>It doesn't matter how those rates are
provided.<BR><BR>In milder (than Canada) climates and smaller, single-storey
homes (ie under 160 sq metres) exhaust-only/passive-inlet ventilation
strategies (EOPIVS) are an alternative to HRVs. The downside to EOPIVS is
that there will likely be no heat recovery capacity on the exhaust air
stream which means that energy consumption for space conditioning will
likely be up to 40% higher than it needs to be and for any building aspiring
to be "Green" in 2013, is that acceptable ?<BR><BR>But enough of that (and
apologies to those who have had to endure this rant on numerous occasions
previously).<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-- <BR>=== * ===<BR>Rob Tom<SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span> </SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN><SPAN
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre" class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>AOD257<BR>Kanata,
Ontario, Canada<BR><BR>< A r c h i L o g i c at Y a h o o
dot c a ><BR>(manually winnow the chaff from my edress
if you hit
"reply")<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>GSBN mailing
list<BR><A
href="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com">GSBN@sustainablesources.com</A><BR>http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></DIV>
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