<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:14pt">Wow, thanks for all of the knowledge, experience, and passion <br>that a single question reveals in this group! There surely isn't one<br>simple answer, and our own questions are apparently questionable!<br><br>Okay then, we'll sort through all of this feedback and figure out what<br>will work best in this case.<br><br>Have a lovely holiday everyone!<br>Mark<br><div><span><br></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(128, 0, 0);">Mark Lakeman</span><br style="color:rgb(0, 0, 127);"><br style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 191);"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;">Co-Founder </span> <span style="font-family:verdana, helvetica,
sans-serif;"></span></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 191);"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><font size="2"><span style="font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;"> Principal & Design Lead </span></font> </span><br><span style="font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;"><span style="font-weight:bold;">The City Repair Project </span> </span> <font style="font-weight:bold;" size="5"><span style="font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;">communitecture, inc.</span></font></span><br style="color:rgb(0, 0, 191);"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 191);"><span style="font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;">Portland, Oregon </span> <span style="font-style:italic;font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;">Architecture & Planning</span></span><br style="color:rgb(0, 0, 191);"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0,
191);"><span style="font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;">503-381-5885 </span> <font size="2"><span style="font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;">503-230-1293</span></font><br style="color:rgb(0, 0, 191);"></span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 191);"><span style="font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;">www.cityrepair.org </span> <font size="2"><span style="font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;">www.communitecture.net</span></font></span><br style="color:rgb(0, 0, 127);"><br style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"></span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 191);"></span><br><br></div> <div style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt;"> <div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif;
font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> John Straube <jfstraube@gmail.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Global Straw Building Network <GSBN@sustainablesources.com> <br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> John Swearingen <jswearingen@skillful-means.com>; nature boy <moontrout@yahoo.com>; Patrick Donaldson <Patrick@communitecture.net> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, November 20, 2012 11:42 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [GSBN] Window Detailing Question<br> </font> </div> <br>
<div id="yiv376371844">
<div>
<div class="yiv376371844moz-cite-prefix"><font face="Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif">Another John here.<br>
Provided the window frame is within the lines of the exterior
and interior surfaces of the strawbale wall, locating the window
has almost zero impact on thermal performance. Perhaps 3-5% for
the extreme positions and less than that when you are even a few
inches in.<br>
I think Bob Theis is correct that it is easier to waterproof the
window on the flat, eg on the exterior face. <br>
However, I know that locating the window on the face exposes it
to MUCH more rain water, and so I NEED to get better water
proofing.<br>
If the window is pulled in somewhat (say 4-6"), the head and
jambs become very protected but the sill becomes very exposed.
<br>
So to get any advantage we need to detail the sill carefully
(pesky corners). But, steeply sloping (say 6:12) sills will
also greatly reduce risk.<br>
The bottom corners at the sill can be easily solved (in my
humble opinion) by using preformed corners, made of rubber,
plastic or galv metal (check out people like Dow and Cosella
Doerken for plastic and rubber cheap corners, get you sheet
metal guy to build metal ones)<br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<div class="yiv376371844moz-signature">Dr John Straube, P.Eng. <br>
<a rel="nofollow" class="yiv376371844moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.buildingscience.com/">www.BuildingScience.com</a></div>
On 12-11-19 8:59 PM, John Swearingen wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">Ah, finally you are coming around to moving the
windows inward, though I would challenge your reasoning. There
are many good reasons to place the windows in mid-wall, but I
don't think preventing thermal gaps is one of them; the difference
is likely to be minor compared to other issues.
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>Here are a few:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<ol>
<li>Shading: by far the most significant thermal effect of
window placement is the degree of shading provided,
especially on E & W orientations.<br>
</li>
<li>
Rain cover: The technical problem with bale walls is that
windows are placed in a wall that has no sheet membrane to
lap over the windows. This problem exists wherever the
window is located, but when water sheeting down the wall
has to make a 90 degree turn, from vertical to horizontal,
there are more opportunities to intercept and disperse water
before it gets past the window. (Bob Theis likes the windows
pasted to the outside in order to avoid the 3D waterproofing
issue, I think it's foolish to think that it's really any
easier).</li>
<li>Sill detailing: Wider sills provide better dispersion of
rain striking the window location. (However, wind-driven
rain can accumulate)..</li>
<li>They look awesome: show off how thick your walls really
are.</li>
<li>They look friendly: shallower sills on the interior are
generally more pleasing and less like a monk's cell
or dungeon (take your pick).</li>
</ol>
<div>My thought....</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>John</div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="yiv376371844gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="yiv376371844gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 5:25 PM, nature
boy <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:moontrout@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:moontrout@yahoo.com">moontrout@yahoo.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="yiv376371844gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div>
<div style="font-size:14pt;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">
<div><span>Hi Folks,</span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span>Mark
Lakeman at communitecture and City Repair in
Portland here. <br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span>We
have a </span><span>new bale project</span><span>
coming in and we're thinking in terms of some <br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span>passive
haus - kinda </span><span>design concerns</span><span>
as well. Can anyone please comment <br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span>on
the question below,</span><span> please?</span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span>-
So, we're thinking of bringing the windows of this
building inboard to the middle of <br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span>the</span><span>
thickness </span><span>of the wall, as opposed to
how we normally set them at the exterior edge <br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span>of
the</span><span> wall. </span><span>The idea is
that we will provide more thermal resistance through</span><span>
the wall at <br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span>the
jamb, </span><span>head, and sill in order to
transfer through more fiber rather than just being <br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span>able
to nip </span><span>diagonally</span><span> through
the wall around the window frames.</span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span>Is
it worth doing this in consideration of potentially
increased water infiltration issues?</span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span>Please
advise!</span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><br>
<span></span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span>Thanks
always, <br>
</span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span>Mark</span></div>
<div style="font-style:normal;font-size:18.6667px;background-color:transparent;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(128,0,0);">Mark Lakeman</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,127);">
<br style="">
<span style="color:rgb(0,0,191);"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);"><span style="font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;">Co-Founder
</span> <span style="font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;"></span></span></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,191);"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);"><font><span style="font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;">
Principal & Design Lead </span></font>
</span><br>
<span style="font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;"><span style="font-weight:bold;">The City Repair
Project </span> </span> <font style="font-weight:bold;" size="5"><span style="font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;">communitecture,
inc.</span></font></span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,191);">
<span style="color:rgb(0,0,191);"><span style="font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;">Portland,
Oregon </span> <span style="font-style:italic;font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;">Architecture
& Planning</span></span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,191);">
<span style="color:rgb(0,0,191);"><span style="font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;"><a href="" rel="nofollow">503-381-5885</a>
</span> <font><span style="font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;"><a href="" rel="nofollow">503-230-1293</a></span></font><br style="color:rgb(0,0,191);">
</span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,191);"><span style="font-family:lucida console, sans-serif;"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.cityrepair.org/">www.cityrepair.org</a> </span>
<font><span style="font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;"><a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.communitecture.net/">www.communitecture.net</a></span></font></span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,127);">
<br style="">
<span style=""></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,191);"></span><br>
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:14pt;">
<div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial">
<hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b>
Chris Magwood <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:chris@endeavourcentre.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:chris@endeavourcentre.org">chris@endeavourcentre.org</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b>
Global Straw Building Network <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com">GSBN@sustainablesources.com</a>>
<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Tuesday, November 13, 2012 4:13 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold;">Subject:</span></b>
[GSBN] Can bale buildings be air tight?<br>
</font> </div>
<br>
Hi all!<br>
<br>
Maybe the question of whether or not a bale building
can be built air tight hasn't been keeping you all
awake at night, but it's caused Jen and I some long
evenings of thought and lots of detail drawings on
our plans! Maybe that's just what keeps northerners
warm at night...<br>
<br>
We've been honing in on good results over the past
couple of years, and this year we finally nailed it
(but didn't put a nail through it... that would have
been counter-productive). We just did a blower door
test on our most recent project and ended up with a
result of 0.99 ACH50. That's approaching the
PassiveHaus goal of 0.6, and we realized after the
test that we hadn't covered up the open sump pit in
the basement, so we may actually get to PH levels
with the final test.<br>
<br>
The building has a mix of site-built, clay plastered
walls and prefabricated, lime/cement plastered
walls. We've long used a system that uses a flexible
air barrier (house-wrap type membrane) at the edges
of the walls where the plaster will meet ceiling,
floor and intersecting walls. The membrane wraps
down behind the plaster by 3-4 inches. What was
interesting with this building was to find that in
some areas that detail worked very well, and in
others it didn't help much at all.<br>
<br>
What this tells us is that unprotected plastered
edges leak... a lot! Our first blower test helped us
discover that some of these seams were leaky. One
leaky wall accounted for a shocking 74 square inches
of leakage! By eye, it just looked like the usual
plaster shrinkage around the edge of the wall, maybe
1/8 inch. But multiply that around an entire home
and it's no wonder that many bale buildings under
perform in blower door tests. You can see photos of
these areas on our project blog at <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://endeavourcentre.org/2012/11/blower-door-test-1/">http://endeavourcentre.org/2012/11/blower-door-test-1/</a><br>
<br>
What we don't know is why some areas stayed tight
and others didn't. Our best guess is that it can
come down to quality of work. How long was the
barrier tail left? How well was the mesh installed
over it? How vigorously was the plaster pushed into
the mesh? The plaster pulling away at the edge as it
shrinks also seems to cause some slight bending of
the skin inward, taking it away from the barrier.<br>
<br>
One good take-away from this project is about the
beauty of clay plasters. The leaky edges of the clay
plastered walls were relatively easy to address...
moisten the edges a bit and squeeze in more clay
mix. Everything bonds together and the seams went
from very leaky to completely tight!<br>
<br>
Now, if anybody happens to ask if them there bale
houses can be air tight, it's possible to answer
yes.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
-- Chris Magwood<br>
Director, Endeavour Centre<br>
<a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.endeavourcentre.org/">www.endeavourcentre.org</a><br>
<br>
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<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<font face="'trebuchet ms', sans-serif"><span style="font-size:x-small;"><font color="#666666">John
Swearingen<br>
Skillful Means Design & Construction<br>
2550 9th Street Suite 209A<br>
Berkeley, CA 94710<br>
510.849.1800 phone<br>
510.849.1900 fax<br>
<br>
Web Site: <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="http://www.skillful-means.com/">http://www.skillful-means.com</a><br>
Blog: <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank" href="https://skillfulmeansdesign.wordpress.com/">https://skillfulmeansdesign.wordpress.com</a></font></span></font><br>
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