<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]-->
<title>Re: [GSBN] Update, question re: proposed SB code (hay bales)</title>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="State"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="country-region"/>
<o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
name="place"/>
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Helvetica;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
p.MsoPlainText, li.MsoPlainText, div.MsoPlainText
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Courier New";}
p.MsoAutoSig, li.MsoAutoSig, div.MsoAutoSig
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.EmailStyle17
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:Arial;
color:green;
font-weight:normal;
font-style:normal;
text-decoration:none none;}
@page Section1
{size:595.3pt 841.9pt;
margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
</head>
<body lang=EN-GB link=blue vlink=blue style='word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=green face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:green'>Hi John Rehorn & all<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=green face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:green'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=green face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:green'>I find your insight very interesting about
taking into account the time of harvesting and that in times past folk would probably
have harvested grasses during the fall so as to reduce the level of nutrient in
the grasses or hay that they were baling for building purposes.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=green face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:green'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=green face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:green'>To add to this, I recall working on a
rural project in Zululand where the local women told me that they would wait
for the first frost (which typically starts in late autumn) before they would
cut the local grasses to add reinforcing to their mud when making mud bricks.
Their winters are dry and so an ideal time for making of mud bricks. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=green face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:green'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=green face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:green'>This understanding also ties in with the technique
of “moon phase harvesting” of timber, which I learn of in <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Japan</st1:place></st1:country-region> and that
I have been using very successfully for the last 6 or so years now.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=green face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:green'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=green face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:green'>For building purposes when ever possible,
we harvest our timbers in the late autumn up to mid winter and according to the
waning phase of the moon ….so as to cut the timber when virtually all of the
nutrient bearing sap moves into the roots. i.e. to be precise: between the time
of the autumn equinox and up until the winter solstice combined with being in
the last 3 days leading up to the new moon …but not on or after the time
of the new moon. When this is done correctly one can be guaranteed that there will
be practically no nutrient remaining in the timbers, which leaves the timber super
resistant to any form of borer beetle and fungal attack – within in
reason i.e. keeping ones timber dry is always a good idea – As a result
one can get away from having to preserve ones structural timber with preservatives
…still really toxic in our parts other than boron which is sometimes
available. The timber also tends to be far more stable and much less susceptible
to cracking and warping. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=green face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:green'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=2 color=green face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:green'>cheers<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=2 color=green face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:green'>Andy<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=2 color=green face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:green'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=2 color=green face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:green'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=green face=Arial><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:green'><img width=576
height=119 id="_x0000_i1027" src="cid:image001.gif@01CCE835.62953C80"></span></font><font
size=3 color=green face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";color:green'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=green face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:green'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
GSBN-bounces@sustainablesources.com
[mailto:GSBN-bounces@sustainablesources.com] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>john rehorn<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 09 February 2012 05:27 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Global Straw Building Network<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [GSBN] Update,
question re: proposed SB code (hay bales)</span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Just a note as it pertains to actual need for a building material in
certain areas, perhaps third world cases where grains aren't typically grown.
I realize this wouldn't apply generally to building codes, but may be
useful information. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Grass cut for animal feed is harvested just when the plant has maximum
food value -- right after seed heads form. If one were to wait until fall
when the energy (sugars specifically) of the plant returns to the root, then
that hay is more straw-like and is substantially less likely to possess the
undesirable properties associated with building with "hay". I'm
sure that's what the Nebraskans did.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Farmer John Rehorn <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On Feb 9, 2012, at 7:52 AM, martin hammer wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Derek,<br>
<br>
Thanks for persisting with this. You’re right that if only straw
from the five named plants is permitted, then everything else is not pemitted,
including hay. But sometimes something is so commonly misused, it’s
worth explicitly prohibiting it. On the other hand, I was actually
revisiting the issue of building with hay bales. (Is it in fact a misuse.)<br>
<br>
You’re also right that alfalfa is often referred to as hay (the words
“alfalfa hay” were spoken to me yesterday) and it is not a grass,
which I didn’t know until looking it up just now. You raise a good
point. And according to at least some definitions, cereal grains are a
type of grass (or </span></font><font size=2 face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>graminoid). So stating
that hay (cut and dried grass) is prohibited seems to unwittingly also prohibit
the use of straw from cereal grains. (Depending on what definitions are agreed
upon.) (RT seems to concur that cereal grain plants are grasses.)<br>
</span></font><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Arial'><br>
And flax? Maybe. That’s why I opened the question.
Should flax be added to the list of permitted building bale materials?
I’ve never seen a test that included flax bales, which could be a
problem when this is all scrutinized. But I don’t believe
I’ve seen a test with rye straw bales either. As with virtually
every small and large part of this, pandora’s box is not far away.<br>
<br>
The task here, as with every inch of the proposed code, is to find the best
place to draw the line, all relevant things considered. <br>
<br>
Do you want to propose how this should be worded?<br>
<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2/8/12 7:59 PM, "Derek Roff" <<a
href="x-msg://1524/derek@unm.edu">derek@unm.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>"I don’t think hay vs. straw is as fuzzy as you
suggest." How fuzzy did I suggest? For people who are paying
attention to strawbale building, I agree that the distinction is clear enough.
But the number of articles and reports, and even occasional statements
from SB home owners, that mention "hay bale houses" is high enough,
that I think there is plenty of confusion in the broader public. My guess
is that lots of code officials, who spend most of their time with concrete and
frame construction, may not immediately grasp the distinction. For
example, alfalfa is called hay, is sold without seed heads, and isn't a grass,
nor a cereal. <br>
<br>
Your response says that, for the purposes of the code, straw allowed for
construction is one of five plants. With that language in the code, hay
is banned, whether it is mentioned or not. For what it is worth, the few
people who have posted to the SB lists on building with flax bales have rated
flax as their favorite bale material. <br>
<br>
Derelict<br>
Derek Roff<br>
<a href="x-msg://1524/derek@unm.edu">derek@unm.edu</a><br>
<br>
On Feb 8, 2012, at 7:24 PM, martin hammer wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Re: [GSBN] Update, question re: proposed SB code (hay bales)
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'>Hi Derek,<br>
<br>
The code proposal doesn’t define hay. When words are not defined in
the code, they have “ordinarily accepted meanings such as the context
implies.” A short dictionary definition of hay is “cut and
dried grass”. Which is a rather cut and dried definition. <br>
<br>
Straw is defined in the code proposal as “The dry stems of cereal grains
after the seed heads have been removed.” (Though the allowed straw is
currently limited to five cereal grains - wheat, rice, rye, barley, and oat)
(am I missing any that anyone uses?) <br>
<br>
Even without hay being defined in the code, I don’t think hay vs. straw is
as fuzzy as you suggest. However, I might ask ICC for their opinion on
whether hay should be defined. <br>
<br>
Martin <br>
</span></font><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Arial'><br>
<br>
On 2/8/12 5:13 PM, "Derek Roff" <<a
href="x-msg://1524/derek@unm.edu">derek@unm.edu</a> <x-msg:<a
href="x-msg://63/derek@unm.edu">//63/derek@unm.edu</a>> > wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>How does the code proposal define hay? Hay vs. straw
is a fuzzy distinction, especially if you want to compare current agricultural
products with those of a hundred years ago. The use of synthetic
fertilizers and new grain varieties make historical comparisons less valuable
for code work, in my opinion. Anything grown with a high dose of
synthetic fertilizer is likely to be more subject to spontaneous combustion.
<br>
<br>
Derelict<br>
<br>
Derek Roff<br>
<a href="x-msg://1524/derek@unm.edu">derek@unm.edu</a> <x-msg:<a
href="x-msg://63/derek@unm.edu">//63/derek@unm.edu</a>> <br>
<br>
On Feb 8, 2012, at 4:04 PM, martin hammer wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Hello all,<br>
<br>
After resubmitting the proposed SB code to the International Code Council last
week, I received their comments and will submit final revisions on Monday.<br>
<br>
Thank you to those who gave input re: clay plaster in the proposed SB section
of the International Building Code. There was a mix of opinion, sometimes
in direct conflict. I used some of the suggested changes. I
generally loosened the language (we’ll see how much vagueness is accepted
without challenge) and eliminated any required percentage of clay. I
still welcome clay plaster input from those who expressed initial interest, but
whose busy lives probably got in the way (but asap please). Particular
thanks to Graeme North who gave input on the entire proposed code (as he did in
a past iteration).<br>
<br>
One other question for input:<br>
<br>
Prohibit use of baled hay? (That’s what the proposed code currently
says.)<br>
<br>
This is the conventional wisdom, but weren’t some of the first buildings
in <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Nebraska</st1:place></st1:State>
built with hay bales (some still standing?), or has anyone successfully used
hay bales (or bales with other non-straw “grasses”)?
Yesterday I had a discussion with a <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">California</st1:place></st1:State> rice farmer who bales straw and
alfalfa hay. He says that apart from the notion that hay is more subject
to degradation, hay is 2 to 3 times as expensive so is much less likely to be
used as a building material. Regarding the notorious proclivity for
stacks of hay bales to spontaneously combust, in addition to witnessing that,
he has twice seen a stack of rice straw bales spontaneously combust.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Martin (what the hay) Hammer</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 face=Helvetica><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
Arial'><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial'>
<hr size=3 width="95%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>_______________________________________________<br>
GSBN mailing list<br>
<a href="x-msg://1524/GSBN@sustainablesources.com">GSBN@sustainablesources.com</a><br>
<a href="http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN">http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>
GSBN mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com">GSBN@sustainablesources.com</a><br>
http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>