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<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bohdan,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"Strawbales should only be used in walls". Hear hear.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>We beefed up some open webbed trusses and spaced them a bale apart and laid
bails onto the T&G ceiling decking for a roof system. The thermal bypass at
each truss was a nightmare to deal with.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Danny Buck</DIV>
<DIV>Builder, Santa Fe</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; PADDING-TOP: 10pt">----- Original Message -----
<DIV><B>From:</B> <A title=mailto:bohdan@bdcoarchitects.com.au
href="mailto:bohdan@bdcoarchitects.com.au">Bohdan Dorniak</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com
href="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com">'Global Straw Building Network'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 24, 2012 5:37 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [GSBN] Question about SB insulation at
foundation/ceiling</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">David
maaaaate- you can't guarantee that the bales won't rot.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
agree with Bruce.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">You're
asking for big trouble. (Hope you have lots of insurance
cover!)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Strawbales
should only be used in walls -using strawbales under floor have too many damp
issues.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I'd
like to hear a response from our colleague in New Zealand (Graeme) where
moisture is a real problem.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Bohdan
"don't like using bales under floors" Dorniak<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Architect,
South Australia<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-US>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-US>
GSBN-bounces@sustainablesources.com [mailto:GSBN-bounces@sustainablesources.com]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>David Arkin, AIA<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 25 January 2012
10:34 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Global Straw Building Network<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[GSBN] Question about SB insulation at
foundation/ceiling<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>In slab on grade situations we're now using mineral wool, aka
rock wool, which is available in panels and becoming increasingly easy to get
here in the US, and it's been around for quite some time. Roxul is one
brand: <A
title=http://www.roxul.com/building+envelope/products/roxul+drainboard®
href="http://www.roxul.com/building+envelope/products/roxul+drainboard®">http://www.roxul.com/building+envelope/products/roxul+drainboard®</A><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>They claim that the energy used in manufacturing is recovered
within three weeks of installation. It isn't the least expensive solution,
but it is entirely rot resistant, and it isn't petroleum. We've also used
EPS under slabs, employing the wisdom of Buckminster Fuller, "We have more than
enough petroleum to meet our needs, if we'd only stop burning it." Rigid
foam insulation which enables a building to need less heating or cooling is a
justifiable investment, imho.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>That all said, this idea of bales under a floor - even a slab
on grade - intrigues me, and I do believe one can create a condition where the
risk of rot is minimized. However, building occupants would need to know
that frequent (or maybe any) mopping of floors is not possible, and I'd still
prefer to see the bales considered as sacrificial. If the bales were
staggered slightly in both directions one could have occasional piers (roughly
2' (0.6m) o.c. in one direction and ±3'-9" (±1.15m) o.c. the other, depending on
bale size) that would take over the supporting of the floor if the bales were to
deteriorate. <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>And of course John Straube beats me to the 'send' button yet
again!<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>David <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Jan 24, 2012, at 11:17 AM, <A
title=mailto:forum@lamaisonenpaille.com
href="mailto:forum@lamaisonenpaille.com">forum@lamaisonenpaille.com</A>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><BR><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=apple-style-span><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">It is true that
(raised) SB floor insulation are getting more popular here in Europe but this
worries me somewhat because in my pré-SB life I have seen at least 3 floors with
water 'standing' on it due to : a frozen water pipe, a broken down washing
machine and (the most fun) a friend who put a few beers in the botom of the
shower and he opened the tab so the running water would cool the drinks while
taking a siesta in our spanish hotel in my 20's. His nap was interupted when the
people below saw water comming through the ceiling... My moral of the
story : If don't use waterpipes in cold countries, wash in an outhouse and
be carefull when choosing your friends if you use 'compostable' floor
insulation.</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=apple-converted-space><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><BR><SPAN
class=apple-style-span>Sure, some claim that they detail in such a way that
water cannot penetrate, but I wonder how this is done in a perfect, cost
effective and durable manner. In any case, the french insurance companies made
sure SB floor insulation was deleted from our proposal for the recently approved
french SB building rules (I wonder why? ;-).</SPAN><BR><BR><SPAN
class=apple-style-span>An interesting technique sometimes used in France is
using a tiny fan to blow the hot air (from below the roofing) through pipes
under the slab (at a well calculate dept) so that with the time lag this heat
comes up during winter. Seems like a clever idea to take away the heat where we
don't want it in a way it becomes available where and when we do appreciate it.
I have no details of it and there might be practical disadvantages that makes
this system less ideal than one might think...</SPAN><BR><BR><SPAN
class=apple-style-span>André - fan of locally made slippers - de
Bouter</SPAN><BR><SPAN
class=apple-style-span>France</SPAN><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><SPAN
class=apple-style-span>Le 24/01/2012 19:10, Laura Bartels a
écrit :</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=apple-style-span><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">In the project
I just finished, we used bagged perlite insulation over 6 inches of 3/4" washed
gravel covered by a vapor/radon barrier. The perlite was tamped, finishing at 7"
for an R-value of 21.9. It is a regional material here, minimally processed,
light to transport, and non-toxic. So far, I'm very satisfied with this choice
and would like to do more with this material. It is installed under an adobe
floor with good results. I had had conversations with Daniel Silvernail, who had
also used perlite underfloor, as well as builders in the northwest US. I know
there's been some discussion of perlite on this list which I believe I missed
due to my schedule at the time.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">On a related
note, I have just spent a few days with Arlene Blum, PhD and director of the
Green Science Policy Institute and learned much more detail of the toxicity of
flame retardants which are added to most foam building insulations as well as
foams in furniture. More info can be found here - <A
title=http://greensciencepolicy.org/non-toxic-building-materials
href="http://greensciencepolicy.org/non-toxic-building-materials">http://greensciencepolicy.org/non-toxic-building-materials</A>. There
are some very interesting elements of this issue, one of which is that the flame
retardants not only give little reduction in burn time (as in seconds) but also
add several additional problems if a fire does occur, such as increased carbon
monoxide, soot, along with the cancer causing chemicals that are unregulated as
they do not fall under the jurisdiction of EPA or FDA, but are mandated through
building standards. And for underslab insulations, flame retardants don't make
sense anyway. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Best,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Laura<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
class=apple-style-span><SPAN
style="COLOR: #4c721d; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=apple-style-span><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; COLOR: #4c721d">Laura
Bartels</SPAN></I></B></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=apple-style-span><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: '" Roman??,?serif?;color:#4C721D? New Times>GreenWeaver
Inc.</SPAN></I></B></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; COLOR: #4c721d; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; COLOR: #4c721d">520 S. Third St.,
Suite 5 </SPAN></I></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; COLOR: #4c721d; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; COLOR: #4c721d">Carbondale, CO
81623<BR>970-379-6779<BR><A title=http://www.greenweaverinc.com/
href="http://www.greenweaverinc.com/">www.greenweaverinc.com</A></SPAN></I></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; COLOR: #4c721d; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; COLOR: #4c721d; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><BR><Mail
Attachment.jpeg></SPAN><SPAN class=apple-style-span><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 13.5pt" class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=apple-style-span><B><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: '" Roman??,?serif?;color:#4C721D? New Times>We've moved to
the Third St. Center </SPAN></I></B></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; COLOR: #4c721d; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; COLOR: #4c721d; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><A
title=http://thirdstreetcenter.net/ href="http://thirdstreetcenter.net/"><SPAN
class=apple-style-span><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: '; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"
Times
?,?serif??>http://thirdstreetcenter.net/</SPAN></I></SPAN></A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=apple-style-span><B><I><SPAN
style="COLOR: #4c721d">A community place promoting inspiration, sustainability
and creative exchange</SPAN></I></B></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; COLOR: #4c721d; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">On Jan 24,
2012, at 10:09 AM, Derek Roff wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">It would be
nice to be able to choose from a richer range of choices than the functional,
but high embodied energy, toxic, petroleum foam vs. a more benign product that
may rot. Making a "lesser of two evils" choice guarantees choosing
something evil. It would be great to have ten choices with generally
positive attributes, but we do have at least one additional option. As I
understand it, Roxul Drainboard rigid mineral fiber insulation is more
environmentally benign than petroleum foam, and more resistant to destruction
from human, insect, and rodent activities. One of the comments in the
links that Joyce gave indicates that Roxul Drainboard was selling at a lower
cost per R-value, as well, at that time in early 2011, in Virginia, if I
remember correctly. I've never used it. Any comments from someone
who has? Any other alternatives that you
favor?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Derelict<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Derek
Roff<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><A
title=mailto:derek@unm.edu
href="mailto:derek@unm.edu">derek@unm.edu</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">On Jan 24,
2012, at 9:32 AM, Bruce King wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">The idea of
using any cellulosic material at or near grade just makes me nervous and ill.
We have a world of experience telling us that wood, paper-faced gypsum
board and straw don't last long there, or anywhere near there. Recall Kim
Thompson's well-documented problems using bales between floor joists over a Nova
Scotia crawlspace.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">But how, then,
to insulate? I guess I would argue for the use of a naturally-occuring
substance that can make a durable and also effective insulator in the presence
of moisture, namely petroleum. It takes a bit of unpleasant processing to
turn oil into foam (that is, something that entraps air which is the real
insulator), and god knows we need to improve on the weird stuff currently on the
market. But if there is any good use for petroleum, this is surely one.
Not for our cars, not for crappy plastic packaging & throwaway junk,
but for effective, durable, reuseable insulation.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Or anyway I'm
still waiting for a viable "natural" ground insulation suggestion that isn't a
super labor intensive fuss job.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Shredded
plastic bags, anyone?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt">Bruce "Oil gladly
pay you Tuesday for some polyisocyanurate today!"
King<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 9pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">On Jan 24,
2012, at 8:08 AM, Frank Tettemer wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 13.5pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Hi
all,<BR><BR>I have just received a message from the designer of the yoga centre,
that I was busy criticizing in my previous post.<BR>The Sivananda Yoga Centre is
still alive and well over a decade later.<BR><BR>I apologize to the GSBN group,
and to Michel Bergeron, for handing down that mis-information about the
Sivananda Yoga Centre. Michel has had no such reports of mold problems, and as
the designer, he would certainly be the first to hear about it. It takes a
foolish commnet from someone like me, to deeply upset the credibility of straw
bale construction. And worst of all, this negative comment coming from a straw
bale builder!<BR><BR>There's a strong lesson in all this for me, to examine all
my sources of information, and to not speak about things of which I have no
first hand knowledge.<BR><BR>Deeply chagrined, deeply humbled,<BR><BR>Frank
Tettemer<BR><BR><BR>On Jan 24, 2012, Derek Roff wrote:<BR>I'm not sure if this
discussion is still alive on the linked site that Joyce posted. The newest
posting is just about a year old, but perhaps the discussion will warm up again.
Bruce King posted a comment last year, when the discussion was
current.<BR><BR>Something that wasn't mentioned in the article or comments is
the naive assumptions regarding the effective insulation value of the strawbale
waffle slab design, even before the bales start to rot. The assertion is
made, and not challenged, that the under-slab strawbale insulation would provide
R-50. Whatever number we accept as the insulative value of each bale, the
thermal bridging of the concrete in the matrix would cut the effective
insulation of the waffle slab design dramatically. Thermal bridging isn't
a problem with the design sketch that Joyce included, but the risk of rot
probably remains.<BR><BR>There is an alternative approach that uses bales as
floor insulation, but above grade. After a European Straw Building
gathering a few years ago, traveling with Catherine Wanek, I visited SB
buildings in half a dozen countries, including several that used strawbales in
the floors, to meet Passiv Haus design goals. All of these structures were
build on piers, so that the bales were above grade and isolated from the
moisture concerns that afflict buried bales. Here is a link to one
example, the S-Haus in Austria.<BR><BR><A
title=http://www.s-house.at/presentations.htm
href="http://www.s-house.at/presentations.htm">http://www.s-house.at/presentations.htm</A><BR><BR>Bale-on,<BR>Derelict<BR><BR>Derek
Roff<BR><A title=mailto:derek@unm.edu
href="mailto:derek@unm.edu">derek@unm.edu</A><SPAN
class=apple-converted-space> </SPAN><<A title=mailto:derek@unm.edu
href="mailto:derek@unm.edu">mailto:derek@unm.edu</A>><BR><BR>On Jan 23, 2012,
at 10:40 AM, Frank Tettemer wrote:<BR><BR>Well now,<BR>that is pretty
interesting.<BR>Thanks, Joyce, for sounding the alarm.<BR><BR>Before I actually
(physically and personally), had built any SB houses, I naturally ass-u-me-d
that bales in the floor and ceiling were a good idea.<BR>It is too bad that the
article in finehomebuilding references the experimental work of Michel Bergeron,
of ArchiBio, in the ground-breaking book of Steen/Steen/Bainbridge/and
Eisenberg. I love the book, and it is what gave me hope for the idea of
burying bales below grade.<BR><BR>Fortunately for me, Linda Chapman, (archi.
from Ottawa), talked with me about doing this in the early nineties.<BR>She had
boldly gone where no one had gone before. And the floor rotted.<BR><BR>And there
was the evidence from the huge three-story yoga retreat centre, built in
Quebec,<BR>which was such a rotten embarrassment, that I won't mention it
anymore.<BR><BR>Then there's the theory that if you stick each bale into a
garbage bad before you bury them under the floor ...<BR>just to say I did, I
took a bale, put it into a garbage bag, and placed it into a weather-protected
shed, to see what happened.<BR>First of all, it took three trys with the garbage
bad to place a bale into it, without it being punctured by straw.<BR>Secondly,
during the summer of 2000, which was a fairly wet year, the bale self-composted,
with out having had a drop of rain on it. I imagine that relative humidity was
all it took. It was full of mildew in two months time.<BR><BR>I have to say,
though, that the idea is so intriguing, that it captures the imagination of
quite a few clients, who would wish me to design a foundation using straw
bales.<BR>Maybe it's just a stupid idea, here in a climate with huge weather
extremes, (+35C to -35C), and many days of damp rainy weather?<BR>Maybe all the
ideas have not been tried as
yet?<BR><BR>Frank<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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