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It is true that (raised) SB floor insulation are getting more
popular here in Europe but this worries me somewhat because in my
pré-SB life I have seen at least 3 floors with water 'standing' on
it due to : a frozen water pipe, a broken down washing machine and
(the most fun) a friend who put a few beers in the botom of the
shower and he opened the tab so the running water would cool the
drinks while taking a siesta in our spanish hotel in my 20's. His
nap was interupted when the people below saw water comming through
the ceiling... My moral of the story : If don't use waterpipes in
cold countries, wash in an outhouse and be carefull when choosing
your friends if you use 'compostable' floor insulation. <br>
Sure, some claim that they detail in such a way that water cannot
penetrate, but I wonder how this is done in a perfect, cost
effective and durable manner. In any case, the french insurance
companies made sure SB floor insulation was deleted from our
proposal for the recently approved french SB building rules (I
wonder why? ;-).<br>
<br>
An interesting technique sometimes used in France is using a tiny
fan to blow the hot air (from below the roofing) through pipes under
the slab (at a well calculate dept) so that with the time lag this
heat comes up during winter. Seems like a clever idea to take away
the heat where we don't want it in a way it becomes available where
and when we do appreciate it. I have no details of it and there
might be practical disadvantages that makes this system less ideal
than one might think...<br>
<br>
André - fan of locally made slippers - de Bouter<br>
France<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le 24/01/2012 19:10, Laura Bartels a écrit :
<blockquote
cite="mid:C29FF577-A19E-4CA6-AE1D-C86AEBF93318@greenweaverinc.com"
type="cite">
<div>In the project I just finished, we used bagged perlite
insulation over 6 inches of 3/4" washed gravel covered by a
vapor/radon barrier. The perlite was tamped, finishing at 7" for
an R-value of 21.9. It is a regional material here, minimally
processed, light to transport, and non-toxic. So far, I'm very
satisfied with this choice and would like to do more with this
material. It is installed under an adobe floor with good
results. I had had conversations with Daniel Silvernail, who had
also used perlite underfloor, as well as builders in the
northwest US. I know there's been some discussion of perlite on
this list which I believe I missed due to my schedule at the
time.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
On a related note, I have just spent a few days with Arlene Blum,
PhD and director of the Green Science Policy Institute and learned
much more detail of the toxicity of flame retardants which are
added to most foam building insulations as well as foams in
furniture. More info can be found here - <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://greensciencepolicy.org/non-toxic-building-materials">http://greensciencepolicy.org/non-toxic-building-materials</a>. There
are some very interesting elements of this issue, one of which is
that the flame retardants not only give little reduction in burn
time (as in seconds) but also add several additional problems if a
fire does occur, such as increased carbon monoxide, soot, along
with the cancer causing chemicals that are unregulated as they do
not fall under the jurisdiction of EPA or FDA, but are mandated
through building standards. And for underslab insulations, flame
retardants don't make sense anyway.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Laura<br>
<div>
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community
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<div>
<div>On Jan 24, 2012, at 10:09 AM, Derek Roff wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
<div>It would be nice to be able to choose from a richer
range of choices than the functional, but high
embodied energy, toxic, petroleum foam vs. a more
benign product that may rot. Making a "lesser of two
evils" choice guarantees choosing something evil. It
would be great to have ten choices with generally
positive attributes, but we do have at least one
additional option. As I understand it, Roxul
Drainboard rigid mineral fiber insulation is more
environmentally benign than petroleum foam, and more
resistant to destruction from human, insect, and
rodent activities. One of the comments in the links
that Joyce gave indicates that Roxul Drainboard was
selling at a lower cost per R-value, as well, at that
time in early 2011, in Virginia, if I remember
correctly. I've never used it. Any comments from
someone who has? Any other alternatives that you
favor?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Derelict</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Derek Roff</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:derek@unm.edu">derek@unm.edu</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>On Jan 24, 2012, at 9:32 AM, Bruce King wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space; ">The idea of using any
cellulosic material at or near grade just makes me
nervous and ill. We have a world of experience
telling us that wood, paper-faced gypsum board and
straw don't last long there, or anywhere near
there. Recall Kim Thompson's well-documented
problems using bales between floor joists over a
Nova Scotia crawlspace.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But how, then, to insulate? I guess I would
argue for the use of a naturally-occuring
substance that can make a durable and also
effective insulator in the presence of moisture,
namely petroleum. It takes a bit of unpleasant
processing to turn oil into foam (that is,
something that entraps air which is the real
insulator), and god knows we need to improve on
the weird stuff currently on the market. But if
there is any good use for petroleum, this is
surely one. Not for our cars, not for crappy
plastic packaging & throwaway junk, but for
effective, durable, reuseable insulation.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Or anyway I'm still waiting for a viable
"natural" ground insulation suggestion that
isn't a super labor intensive fuss job.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Shredded plastic bags, anyone?</div>
<div><br>
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<div style="word-wrap: break-word;
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-webkit-line-break:
after-white-space; "><span
class="Apple-style-span"
style="font-size: 12px; ">
<div style="margin-top: 0px;
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margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; font: normal normal normal
12px/normal Helvetica; ">Thanks,</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px;
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</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px;
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margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; font: normal normal normal
12px/normal Helvetica; ">Bruce
"Oil gladly pay you Tuesday for
some polyisocyanurate today!"
King</div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px;
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0px; font: normal normal normal
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</div>
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</div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Jan 24, 2012, at 8:08 AM, Frank
Tettemer wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Hi all,<br>
<br>
I have just received a message from the
designer of the yoga centre, that I was
busy criticizing in my previous post.<br>
The Sivananda Yoga Centre is still alive
and well over a decade later.<br>
<br>
I apologize to the GSBN group, and to
Michel Bergeron, for handing down that
mis-information about the Sivananda Yoga
Centre. Michel has had no such reports of
mold problems, and as the designer, he
would certainly be the first to hear about
it. It takes a foolish commnet from
someone like me, to deeply upset the
credibility of straw bale construction.
And worst of all, this negative comment
coming from a straw bale builder!<br>
<br>
There's a strong lesson in all this for
me, to examine all my sources of
information, and to not speak about things
of which I have no first hand knowledge.<br>
<br>
Deeply chagrined, deeply humbled,<br>
<br>
Frank Tettemer<br>
<br>
<br>
On Jan 24, 2012, Derek Roff wrote:<br>
I'm not sure if this discussion is still
alive on the linked site that Joyce
posted. The newest posting is just about
a year old, but perhaps the discussion
will warm up again. Bruce King posted a
comment last year, when the discussion was
current.<br>
<br>
Something that wasn't mentioned in the
article or comments is the naive
assumptions regarding the effective
insulation value of the strawbale waffle
slab design, even before the bales start
to rot. The assertion is made, and not
challenged, that the under-slab strawbale
insulation would provide R-50. Whatever
number we accept as the insulative value
of each bale, the thermal bridging of the
concrete in the matrix would cut the
effective insulation of the waffle slab
design dramatically. Thermal bridging
isn't a problem with the design sketch
that Joyce included, but the risk of rot
probably remains.<br>
<br>
There is an alternative approach that uses
bales as floor insulation, but above
grade. After a European Straw Building
gathering a few years ago, traveling with
Catherine Wanek, I visited SB buildings in
half a dozen countries, including several
that used strawbales in the floors, to
meet Passiv Haus design goals. All of
these structures were build on piers, so
that the bales were above grade and
isolated from the moisture concerns that
afflict buried bales. Here is a link to
one example, the S-Haus in Austria.<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.s-house.at/presentations.htm">http://www.s-house.at/presentations.htm</a><br>
<br>
Bale-on,<br>
Derelict<br>
<br>
Derek Roff<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:derek@unm.edu">derek@unm.edu</a>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:derek@unm.edu">mailto:derek@unm.edu</a>><br>
<br>
On Jan 23, 2012, at 10:40 AM, Frank
Tettemer wrote:<br>
<br>
Well now,<br>
that is pretty interesting.<br>
Thanks, Joyce, for sounding the alarm.<br>
<br>
Before I actually (physically and
personally), had built any SB houses, I
naturally ass-u-me-d that bales in the
floor and ceiling were a good idea.<br>
It is too bad that the article in
finehomebuilding references the
experimental work of Michel Bergeron, of
ArchiBio, in the ground-breaking book of
Steen/Steen/Bainbridge/and Eisenberg. I
love the book, and it is what gave me hope
for the idea of burying bales below grade.<br>
<br>
Fortunately for me, Linda Chapman, (archi.
from Ottawa), talked with me about doing
this in the early nineties.<br>
She had boldly gone where no one had gone
before. And the floor rotted.<br>
<br>
And there was the evidence from the huge
three-story yoga retreat centre, built in
Quebec,<br>
which was such a rotten embarrassment,
that I won't mention it anymore.<br>
<br>
Then there's the theory that if you stick
each bale into a garbage bad before you
bury them under the floor ...<br>
just to say I did, I took a bale, put it
into a garbage bag, and placed it into a
weather-protected shed, to see what
happened.<br>
First of all, it took three trys with the
garbage bad to place a bale into it,
without it being punctured by straw.<br>
Secondly, during the summer of 2000, which
was a fairly wet year, the bale
self-composted, with out having had a drop
of rain on it. I imagine that relative
humidity was all it took. It was full of
mildew in two months time.<br>
<br>
I have to say, though, that the idea is so
intriguing, that it captures the
imagination of quite a few clients, who
would wish me to design a foundation using
straw bales.<br>
Maybe it's just a stupid idea, here in a
climate with huge weather extremes, (+35C
to -35C), and many days of damp rainy
weather?<br>
Maybe all the ideas have not been tried as
yet?<br>
<br>
Frank<br>
<br>
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<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
GSBN mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com">GSBN@sustainablesources.com</a>
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