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Hey Bruce,<br>
<br>
What about "shredded plastic bags" in the form of used/discarded
carpet? There's a bunch of that long-lasting petroleum that's
already been processed, used and is about to insulate landfills
around the world. I know there are questions about the insulative
value, but there has to be some, and its a matter of figuring out
how many layers are needed in a particular building. I usually
sandwich my used carpet with a poly barrier above and below,
figuring that moisture is the chief enemy of r-value in this
material. It's worked to keep the Madoc Arts Centre building meeting
its net zero energy targets since 2008, and we calculated it as r-10
for five layers.<br>
<br>
Wouldn't it be great if someone were to undertake some testing on
this?...<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
On 12-01-24 11:32 AM, Bruce King wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:B9591A17-0172-458F-9E70-F0A12D2AF58C@ecobuildnetwork.org"
type="cite">
<div><br>
</div>
The idea of using any cellulosic material at or near grade just
makes me nervous and ill. We have a world of experience telling
us that wood, paper-faced gypsum board and straw don't last long
there, or anywhere near there. Recall Kim Thompson's
well-documented problems using bales between floor joists over a
Nova Scotia crawlspace.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>But how, then, to insulate? I guess I would argue for the
use of a naturally-occuring substance that can make a durable
and also effective insulator in the presence of moisture, namely
petroleum. It takes a bit of unpleasant processing to turn oil
into foam (that is, something that entraps air which is the real
insulator), and god knows we need to improve on the weird stuff
currently on the market. But if there is any good use for
petroleum, this is surely one. Not for our cars, not for crappy
plastic packaging & throwaway junk, but for effective,
durable, reuseable insulation.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Or anyway I'm still waiting for a viable "natural" ground
insulation suggestion that isn't a super labor intensive fuss
job.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Shredded plastic bags, anyone?</div>
<div><br>
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<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
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<div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
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normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Bruce
"Oil gladly pay you Tuesday for some
polyisocyanurate today!" King</div>
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<br>
<div>
<div>On Jan 24, 2012, at 8:08 AM, Frank Tettemer wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Hi all,<br>
<br>
I have just received a message from the designer of the
yoga centre, that I was busy criticizing in my previous
post.<br>
The Sivananda Yoga Centre is still alive and well over a
decade later.<br>
<br>
I apologize to the GSBN group, and to Michel Bergeron, for
handing down that mis-information about the Sivananda Yoga
Centre. Michel has had no such reports of mold problems,
and as the designer, he would certainly be the first to
hear about it. It takes a foolish commnet from someone
like me, to deeply upset the credibility of straw bale
construction. And worst of all, this negative comment
coming from a straw bale builder!<br>
<br>
There's a strong lesson in all this for me, to examine all
my sources of information, and to not speak about things
of which I have no first hand knowledge.<br>
<br>
Deeply chagrined, deeply humbled,<br>
<br>
Frank Tettemer<br>
<br>
<br>
On Jan 24, 2012, Derek Roff wrote:<br>
I'm not sure if this discussion is still alive on the
linked site that Joyce posted. The newest posting is just
about a year old, but perhaps the discussion will warm up
again. Bruce King posted a comment last year, when the
discussion was current.<br>
<br>
Something that wasn't mentioned in the article or comments
is the naive assumptions regarding the effective
insulation value of the strawbale waffle slab design, even
before the bales start to rot. The assertion is made, and
not challenged, that the under-slab strawbale insulation
would provide R-50. Whatever number we accept as the
insulative value of each bale, the thermal bridging of the
concrete in the matrix would cut the effective insulation
of the waffle slab design dramatically. Thermal bridging
isn't a problem with the design sketch that Joyce
included, but the risk of rot probably remains.<br>
<br>
There is an alternative approach that uses bales as floor
insulation, but above grade. After a European Straw
Building gathering a few years ago, traveling with
Catherine Wanek, I visited SB buildings in half a dozen
countries, including several that used strawbales in the
floors, to meet Passiv Haus design goals. All of these
structures were build on piers, so that the bales were
above grade and isolated from the moisture concerns that
afflict buried bales. Here is a link to one example, the
S-Haus in Austria.<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.s-house.at/presentations.htm">http://www.s-house.at/presentations.htm</a><br>
<br>
Bale-on,<br>
Derelict<br>
<br>
Derek Roff<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:derek@unm.edu">derek@unm.edu</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:derek@unm.edu"><mailto:derek@unm.edu></a><br>
<br>
On Jan 23, 2012, at 10:40 AM, Frank Tettemer wrote:<br>
<br>
Well now,<br>
that is pretty interesting.<br>
Thanks, Joyce, for sounding the alarm.<br>
<br>
Before I actually (physically and personally), had built
any SB houses, I naturally ass-u-me-d that bales in the
floor and ceiling were a good idea.<br>
It is too bad that the article in finehomebuilding
references the experimental work of Michel Bergeron, of
ArchiBio, in the ground-breaking book of
Steen/Steen/Bainbridge/and Eisenberg. I love the book,
and it is what gave me hope for the idea of burying bales
below grade.<br>
<br>
Fortunately for me, Linda Chapman, (archi. from Ottawa),
talked with me about doing this in the early nineties.<br>
She had boldly gone where no one had gone before. And the
floor rotted.<br>
<br>
And there was the evidence from the huge three-story yoga
retreat centre, built in Quebec,<br>
which was such a rotten embarrassment, that I won't
mention it anymore.<br>
<br>
Then there's the theory that if you stick each bale into a
garbage bad before you bury them under the floor ...<br>
just to say I did, I took a bale, put it into a garbage
bag, and placed it into a weather-protected shed, to see
what happened.<br>
First of all, it took three trys with the garbage bad to
place a bale into it, without it being punctured by straw.<br>
Secondly, during the summer of 2000, which was a fairly
wet year, the bale self-composted, with out having had a
drop of rain on it. I imagine that relative humidity was
all it took. It was full of mildew in two months time.<br>
<br>
I have to say, though, that the idea is so intriguing,
that it captures the imagination of quite a few clients,
who would wish me to design a foundation using straw
bales.<br>
Maybe it's just a stupid idea, here in a climate with huge
weather extremes, (+35C to -35C), and many days of damp
rainy weather?<br>
Maybe all the ideas have not been tried as yet?<br>
<br>
Frank<br>
<br>
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