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Hello,<br>
<br>
The woodfiber panels that are between the vented airspace and the
straw are open to watervapour but close the wall to air movement. I
feel there is no more outside air comming through these walls then
if they were plasterd on both sides. These boards are also
structural and present a certain fire resistance. The internal
convection as mentioned earlier on this list by David Eisenberg and
others is indeed a concern and personally I have adopted the idea of
buttering the bales with plaster before pushing the bales against
the boards from the inside. The plaster needs to be quite sticky; if
not it falls off when pushing the bales in place.<br>
<br>
The reason I like this method is that it allows us to :<br>
- get a better rain protection than plaster can<br>
- to have an effective way of ataching cladding (which was the
starting point of my reflection on how the wall 'should' be made).<br>
One of the things that bugs me with plaster behind a rainscreen is
that I either find it hard to attach the cladding or I have wood
comming through the plaster and thus not an air and water barrier.
If any of you have cost a effective and well preforming method that
allows a continuous plaster barrier behind cladding I'm keen to see
it.<br>
- to easily respect (here in France) the post and beam building
regulation<br>
- to close the envelope rain before placing the bales<br>
- to have a building method that makes it easy for regular builders
to adopt SB<br>
<br>
Unfortunately the authors of the book Jorge mentioned, who indeed
have a very good reputation, don't cite the source of numbers given.
To my knowledge there has been no thermal testing in France on whole
SB wall assemblies. I therefor fear that the numbers given are
calculations, rather than observations, probably based on the
assumption that the R-value for a SB wall is the same whether
plastered or not. I would be very pleased to read thermal test
results from 'dry' SB construction methods on whole assemblies but
have not yet come across any.<br>
<br>
Have a peacefull day,<br>
Andre <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Le 06/12/2011 22:53, Danny Buck a écrit :
<blockquote cite="mid:SNT141-ds139DB8A1D90E97D088A6E3C5BA0@phx.gbl"
type="cite">
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<div>
<div>I side with Dereck in general and in particular on impact
of the thermal characteristics with no exterior render. There
is the potential for air infiltration through the joints
between bales and accompanying convective currents that can be
set up with the delta T across the thickness of the bale. I
believe a significant component of a bale wall's thermal
performance comes from the interstices being closed off from
the outside atmosphere on both sides of the wall. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>I do not remember the particulars, but as I recall, there
have been tests done on bale walls where the R-value was
dramatically lower than in other tests and one of the
differences was the lack of render on both sides of the wall.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Danny Buck</div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:
5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>From:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true" title="mailto:vankrieken@gmail.com"
href="mailto:vankrieken@gmail.com">Van Krieken</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com"
href="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com">Global Straw
Building Network</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December
06, 2011 9:21 AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [GSBN] Fwd:
Decrement factor of SB walls</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Yes, Dereck, you're right. In this example there is no
exterior plaster/render. Instead, there is a 16mm rainscreen
panel (could be fiberwood).
<div>I attach here a picture of the example presented in the
book.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Jorge VK</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 2:34 PM,
Derek Roff <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mailto:derek@unm.edu"
href="mailto:derek@unm.edu" target="_blank">derek@unm.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN:
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class="gmail_quote">
<div style="WORD-WRAP: break-word">
<div>Thank you, Jorge, for greater details on the
French research. It appears to me that the
construction describes a wall with earthen
plaster/render on the inside, and no plaster/render
on the outside. Is this correct? If so, the lack
of an exterior plaster/render layer would have a
significant effect on the thermal characteristics, I
would think. As well as fire resistance, structural
rigidity, moisture buffering, and perhaps a bit of
insect and rodent deterrence. I know that some
people build this way, but it seems imprudent to me.
Have I misunderstood the nature of the wall that
Jean-Pierre Oliva and Samuel Courgey are
describing/testing? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you,</div>
<div>Derelict</div>
<div>Derek Roff</div>
<font color="#888888">
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mailto:derek@unm.edu"
href="mailto:derek@unm.edu" target="_blank">derek@unm.edu</a></div>
</font>
<div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Dec 6, 2011, at 5:52 AM, Van Krieken
wrote:</div>
<div>
<div>John,<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>As I wrote before, the best source of
information (I have) about this issue it
is the book writen by Jean-Pierre Oliva
and Samuel Courgey ( L'Isolation Thermique
Ecologique). </div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">Jean-Pierre
Oliva is perhaps the best known french
bio climatic architect, and since many
years a great enthusiast of straw bale
building. His books (also La
Architecture Bioclimatique) can be found
at Amazon.</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">Unfortunately,
this book is only in FRENCH. I am sorry
if my translation was not well done, so
I include here the original text in
french.</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Citing their book, page 175, concerning
a wall with wood structure and straw bales
with medium density (80 to 110 Kg/m3,
strawbale section 34x46cm. Vented façade
(or rainscreen claddind) in exterior, and
interior with clay render.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Note.: <span style="FONT-FAMILY: Times
New Roman,Bold; FONT-SIZE: 16px">I
attach to this discussion a paper wrote
by </span><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 14px">Jim
Carfrae</span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 13px">,
attached to this forum last January,
22, where you may have more information
about the benefits on using of a
rainscreen clading in a straw bale
building, specially on humid climates.</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 13px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 13px">The
rainscreen cladding is included in the
calculation of JeanPierre Oliva for this
next example:</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 13px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 13px">Wall:</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 13px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">1.
Bardage bois (2cm)</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">2.
lattes support et contre-latte (6cm
minimum)</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">3.
Panneaux pare-plui contreventans (16mm)</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">4.
Poteaux bois massif (4x20 tous les 60cm)</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">5.
Liteau de maintien des bottes (toutes
les 2 bottes)</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">6. Botte
de paille posé sur champ (36cm)</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">7.
enduit terre (30mm)</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">Caracteristiques
Thermiques et environnementales:</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif">Coeficient
de déperdition thermique U </font>(W/m2K)
/ R (m2K/W)
.................................. 0,13 /
7,76</div>
<div>Pertes dues aux points thermiques
intégrés....................................................................
4%</div>
<div>Capacité thermique intérieure
quotidienne<span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">kWh/m2K).....................</span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">.............................
15 (forte</span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">)</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 13px">Capacité
thermique intérieure séquentielle </span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">.....................</span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">...............................................25
(moyenne)</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">Déphasage
(heure) / Atténuation du flux de chaleur
(%)..............................................</span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">16h
/ 13%</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">Epaisseur
supplementaire pour atteindre le niveau
"passif".......................................
0</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">Bilan
"CO2" du m2 de
paroi.............................................................................................
-83 kg CO2 eq</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">Bilan
"energie grise" du m2 de
paroi..............................................................................
62 kWh</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 13px"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 13px">Translation
(?):</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1. Thermal loss U (W/m2K) / R (m2K/W)
.................................. 0,13 /
7,76</div>
<div>2. Losses due to thermal
bridges...............................................
4%</div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">3.
Daily</span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)"> </span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">indoor</span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)"> </span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">heat
capacity
(kWh/m2K)................................
15 (strong)</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">4.
Sequential indoor heat capacity (</span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">kWh/m2K)</span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">.......................25
(medium)</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">5.
Phase shift (hour) / </span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">mitigation</span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)"> </span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">of
the heat flux (%)............... 16h /
13%</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)"><br>
</span></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="arial,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font color="#333333" face="arial,
sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">All
the best</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(51,51,51)">Jorge
VK</span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded
message ----------<br>
From: <b class="gmail_sendername">John
Swearingen</b> <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mailto:jswearingen@skillful-means.com"
href="mailto:jswearingen@skillful-means.com" target="_blank">jswearingen@skillful-means.com</a>></span><br>
Date: Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 1:35 AM<br>
Subject: Re: [GSBN] Decrement factor of SB
walls<br>
To: Global Straw Building Network <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com"
href="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com"
target="_blank">GSBN@sustainablesources.com</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
This is very interesting, and fortunately in
English. Unfortunately, I don't really know
what it means. Can you explain more?
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<ul>
<li>U-value I know. </li>
<li>Thermal bridges to nowhere, I know,
but what is a "vented facade" (above).
</li>
<li>What are daily indoor heat
capacities and sequential head
capacities, and what does "strong" and
"medium" mean? </li>
<li>Phase shift mitigation?</li>
</ul>
<div>Thanks!</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov
28, 2011 at 3:40 PM, Van Krieken <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="mailto:vankrieken@gmail.com"
href="mailto:vankrieken@gmail.com" target="_blank">vankrieken@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:
rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid;
MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;
PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class="gmail_quote">Hi
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The best source of
information about this issue
(and many others concerning
insulation, thermal mass, etc)
it is the book writen by
Jean-Pierre Oliva and Samuel
Courgey ( L'Isolation Thermique
Ecologique).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Citing their book, page 175,
concerning a wall with wood
structure and straw bales with
medium density (80 to 110 Kg/m3,
strawbale section 34x46cm.
Vented façade in exterior, and
interior with clay render.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thermal loss U (W/m2K) / R
(m2K/W)
..................................
0,13 / 7,76</div>
<div>Losses due to thermal
bridges...............................................
4%</div>
<div><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(51,51,51)">Daily</span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(51,51,51)"> </span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(51,51,51)">indoor</span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(51,51,51)"> </span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(51,51,51)">heat capacity
(kWh/m2K)................................
15 (strong)</span></div>
<div><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(51,51,51)"><span>Sequential
indoor</span> <span>heat
capacity (</span></span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(51,51,51)">kWh/m2K)</span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(51,51,51)">.......................25
(medium)</span></div>
<div><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(51,51,51)">Phase shift
(hour) / </span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(51,51,51)">mitigation</span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(51,51,51)"> </span><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(51,51,51)">of the heat
flux (%)............... 16h /
13%</span></div>
<div><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(51,51,51)"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(51,51,51)">Unfortunately,
this book is only in English.
Jean-Pierre Oliva, is one of
the best known french bio
climatic architects, and since
many years a great enthusiast
of straw bale building. His
books (also La Architectire
Bioclimatique) can be found at
Amazon.</span></div>
<div><font color="#333333"
face="arial, sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(51,51,51)"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(51,51,51)">All the best</span></div>
<div><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(51,51,51)"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(51,51,51)">Jorge VK</span></div>
<div><span
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:
rgb(245,245,245); FONT-FAMILY:
arial,sans-serif; COLOR:
rgb(51,51,51)">Portugal</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN">http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN</a>
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