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I have written other things that would be appropriate for bathroom
walls, but I'll send those off-list!<br>
<br>
<br>
On 11-10-18 7:41 PM, Bob Theis wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:A7796619-5AA0-4522-8554-79EA439DF890@bobtheis.net"
type="cite">Chris Magwood's article reminds me of a poem I read
on the wall of a relative's bathroom decades ago:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Turn off the lights</div>
<div>In the darkness you will hear the rivers</div>
<div>Whispering their thanks. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Oct 18, 2011, at 3:46 PM, Graeme North wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">An interesting
discussion indeed, thanks to you all.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In my opinion, chasing what I call "fugitive" energy
savings at often considerable cost of resources-rich and
energy-intensive systems is very dubious work, which
ends up supporting the overuse of resources.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>One wonderful example, installing huge quadruple
glazed windows, facing the wrong way for passive solar
design, and then placed in a hugely oversized houses. </div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height:
14px; "><br>
</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height:
14px; ">As I see it, this sort of so-called 'green’
architecture largely supports business as usual,
despite the inherent un-sustainability of this. A huge
house that is six-star rated can be far tougher on the
environment than a tiny house </span><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 14px; ">that
might achieve no star rating at all. Tick-box rating
systems tend to ‘less bad’ buildings rather
than outcomes that are ‘good’, or ecologically
restorative. </span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height:
14px; "><br>
</span></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height:
14px; ">An approach that reduces </span><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 14px; ">the
use of resources will help. </span><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 14px; ">One
really good way to reduce environmental impact is to
do less. Simple. I get potential clients coming to me
wanting a really environmentally sustainable house who
then describe a</span></div>
<div>
<div style="line-height: 1.22em; "><font
style="line-height: 1.22em; "><span
style="line-height: 1.22em; ">300 sq. m. building
for just two people. As a starting point I offer
to halve (at least) their environmental impact
(fantastic!) – by designing a building half the
size. </span></font></div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I also question (<i>and here I risk swearing in
church</i>) the whole philosophy of tightly sealed
"passiv haus" which are then mechanically ventilated.
The energy intensive approach this embodies is also up
there at the doubtful end of the spectrum it seems to
me. Great until the power goes out. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>cheers</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:
separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
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text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space:
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; ">
<div>Graeme</div>
<div>Graeme North Architects</div>
<div>49 Matthew Road</div>
<div>RD1</div>
<div>Warkworth</div>
<div>tel/fax +64 (0)9 4259305</div>
<div> </div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:graeme@ecodesign.co.nz">graeme@ecodesign.co.nz</a></div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ecodesign.co.nz/">www.ecodesign.co.nz</a></div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</span>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On 18/10/2011, at 3:43 AM, <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:strawnet@aol.com">strawnet@aol.com</a>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite"><font color="black"
face="arial" size="2">slight<font color="black"
face="arial" size="2"><font face="Arial,
Helvetica, sans-serif"> correction - I meant
to say that the size of the operating energy
didn't reduce the size of the embodied
energy...<br>
<br>
David<br>
</font>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div
style="font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----Original
Message-----<br>
From: David Eisenberg <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:strawnet@aol.com">strawnet@aol.com</a>><br>
To: Global Straw Building Network <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:GSBN@sustainablesources.com">GSBN@sustainablesources.com</a>><br>
Sent: Mon, Oct 17, 2011 7:33 am<br>
Subject: Re: [GSBN] Embodied/embedded energy
figures<br>
<br>
<div
id="AOLMsgPart_3_cfa71f9f-2b44-4385-85af-799c8a87e9bf">
I'd like to chime in with appreciation of
the discussion here and to echo Jim and
Tom's observations but to also say that in
my experience - as a long time proponent of
the importance of embodied energy here in
the US, that it was the energy efficiency
folks who dismissed the importance of
embodied energy continually until the last
few years, not those of us involved in
greening the built environment. Their
argument was that if you compared operating
and embodied energy, you would see that
embodied energy was insignificant. My
argument was that we were talking about a
significant number dwarfed by a huge number,
but the size of the embodied energy did not
mean that the embodied energy was not
important, just that it was made to look
insignificant by the size of the operating
energy. They often used percentages to
compare the two and I would say, okay using
that method, what is the percentage of
embodied energy when operating energy is
zero? And how much have you increased the
embodied energy in order to get to net-zero?
My view is that that is the bigger
issue...we're typically using much higher
embodied energy materials and systems in
most of these buildings to get to low
operating energy performance - which
amplifies the problem. And the global
warming potential also typically goes way
up.<br>
<br>
The other aspect of this is the assumption
that we will have the affordable and
available energy to continue to build energy
intensive buildings the way we're been doing
it. A tenuous assumption at best.
Regardless, it would be great to have more
research and better documentation for the
spectrum of natural building materials and
systems. <br>
<br>
Thanks for the great dialogue.<br>
<br>
David Eisenberg<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 17,
2011 at 2:53 AM, Jim Carfrae <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jim.carfrae@plymouth.ac.uk">jim.carfrae@plymouth.ac.uk</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">I would
agree with Tom that we are losing sight
of the importance of embodied energy.<br>
<br>
If you compare a well built SB house to
the equivalent Passiv Haus they can both
reduce their energy in use to a similar
level.<br>
But looking at their total energy dept
over 60 years, the Passiv Haus (built
with conventional materials) will have a
higher energy dept, with up to 40% of
its dept tied up in the fabric of the
building.<br>
<br>
The more you reduce energy in use, the
greater the proportion of your energy
dept over time will be in the materials
you use.<br>
<br>
As Tom points out it depends on the
source of figures you use, but using the
Bath data a quick comparison of straw
and expanded polystyrene is interesting:<br>
<br>
To achieve the U value of a typical SB
wall (0.17 Wm2K) using polystyrene, you
would need a thickness of 135mm.<br>
For each square metre of wall at the
given thickness of each material:<br>
The straw has an embodied energy of 9.5
MJ<br>
The expanded polystyrene has an embodied
energy of 419 MJ<br>
<br>
So a short and simplified answer to the
question 'why use straw?' could be
'because the conventional equivalent has
over 40 times the embodied energy!'<br>
<br>
This is a pretty gross generalisation,
but is still food for thought!<br>
<br>
I presented a paper called 'The
Leechwell Garden House' at the PLEA
conference in Brussels this summer that
discussed this issue. You can download a
copy from my website, along with other
SB related research:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
target="_blank"
href="http://www.carfrae.com/downloads/index.html">http://www.carfrae.com/downloads/index.html</a><br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Jim<br>
<br>
J M J Carfrae PhD<br>
Environmental Building Group<br>
School of Architecture<br>
University of Plymouth<br>
Drake Circus<br>
Plymouth PL4 8AA<br>
UK<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jim.carfrae@plymouth.ac.uk">jim.carfrae@plymouth.ac.uk</a><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jim.carfrae@plymouth.ac.uk">jim.carfrae@plymouth.ac.uk</a>><br>
07880 551922<br>
01803 862369<br>
<div class="im"><br>
On 17 Oct 2011, at 09:12, Tom Woolley
wrote:<br>
<br>
Dear all<br>
<br>
Here is the link to the Bath database
that Bruce couldn't find<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
target="_blank"
href="http://www.bath.ac.uk/mech-eng/sert/embodied/">http://www.bath.ac.uk/mech-eng/sert/embodied/</a><br>
<br>
However Craig Jones who has done most
of the work on this has now moved into
the private sector and works for
"Sustain"<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
target="_blank"
href="http://www.sustain.co.uk/">http://www.sustain.co.uk/</a><br>
</div>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Craig.Jones@sustain.co.uk">Craig.Jones@sustain.co.uk</a><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Craig.Jones@sustain.co.uk">Craig.Jones@sustain.co.uk</a>><br>
<div class="im"><br>
While I think Craig and Geoff at Bath
have done a great job on this, to keep
the issue of embodied energy on the
agenda,<br>
it worries me that the ICE database
is treated with almost biblical
respect in many refereed publications.<br>
<br>
Bath has never had proper funding for
original research on ICE and so much
of the data has been gathered from
here there and everywhere.<br>
This means that the data provided by
many commercial companies has not
necessarily been independently
verified<br>
Some of us would question figures
given for the embodied energy of
natural materials for instance.<br>
<br>
I would be interested to know where
embodied energy figures on the agenda
in other countries ( for something I
am currently writing)<br>
In the UK, organisations like the AECB
and the Passiv Haus people are pushing
the argument at the moment that energy
in use is the only thing that matters.<br>
I though we had got rid of this debate
years ago but it has resurfaced<br>
<br>
While the greenies have been
dismissing embodied energy , the
commercial sector has embraced it
recently, a strange reversal<br>
For instance see the work of Gareth
Roberts at Sturgis on carbon profiling<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
target="_blank"
href="http://sturgiscarbonprofiling.com/?paged=3">http://sturgiscarbonprofiling.com/?paged=3</a><br>
Its worth downloading their RICS
Redefining Zero publication<br>
While it doesn't say anything about
strawbales it does provide a very
interesting methodology.<br>
<br>
We are launching the Alliance for
Sustainable Building Products in
Parliament on November 16th<br>
I have a one page leaflet about this
but I think you cannot add attachments
to these emails so if anyone would
like this please sent an email to my
personal address<br>
</div>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tom.woolley@btconnect.com">tom.woolley@btconnect.com</a><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tom.woolley@btconnect.com">tom.woolley@btconnect.com</a>><br>
<div class="im"><br>
Tom<br>
<br>
<br>
On 14 Oct 2011, at 19:47, Bruce King
wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
The University of Bath (UK) has the
best database I know of, but I can't
find the link.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Bruce King, PE<br>
Director of EBNet<br>
Ecological Building Network<br>
the art and science of building well<br>
</div>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bruce@ecobuildnetwork.org">bruce@ecobuildnetwork.org</a><mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:bruce@ecobuildnetwork.org">bruce@ecobuildnetwork.org</a>><br>
<div class="im">PO Box 6397<br>
San Rafael, CA 94903 USA<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
value="+14159877271">(415) 987-7271</a><br>
follow us on Twitter: @EBNetwork<br>
blog: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
target="_blank"
href="http://bruceking.posterous.com/">http://bruceking.posterous.com/</a><br>
<br>
On Oct 14, 2011, at 11:37 AM, Chris
Magwood wrote:<br>
<br>
Hi all,<br>
<br>
I'm working on a research paper and
I'm trying to find good, reliable
information on embodied energy (or
embedded energy) in building
materials. I have some good papers
from Australia and some stuff from
CMHC, but I'd be glad to receive
suggestions for other sources.<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
<br>
Chris<br>
<br>
--<br>
</div>
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<div class="im"><br>
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<br>
Rachel Bevan Architects<br>
80 Church Road<br>
Crossgar<br>
Downpatrick<br>
BT30 9HR<br>
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