<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><br></div>Howdy, all. I haven't been able to fully track all the responses, but agree with all that I've seen.<div><br></div><div>Alex, it does sound like a continuous footing and sealed crawlspace might be better in the long run both for structural and thermal performance, but short of looking at site and design specifics, I couldn't say more.</div><div><br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">Thanks,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; font-size: 12px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">Bruce King, PE</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">Director of <font class="Apple-style-span" face="Sketcher" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px; ">EBNet</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Sketcher" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px; ">Ecological Building Network</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><b><i>the art and science of building well</i></b></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><a href="mailto:bruce@ecobuildnetwork.org">bruce@ecobuildnetwork.org</a> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">PO Box 6397</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">San Rafael, CA 94903 USA</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">(415) 987-7271</div></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">follow us on Twitter: @EBNetwork</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">blog: <a href="http://bruceking.posterous.com/">http://bruceking.posterous.com/</a></div></div></span></div></span></div></span> </div><br><div><div>On Sep 16, 2011, at 7:26 PM, <a href="mailto:sarahkh@lightlink.com">sarahkh@lightlink.com</a> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>I want to respond to Alex's assumption that a rugged timber frame is a "must"<br>for dealing with the Chinook winds.<br>Timber frames are not all that stiff. The bracing of a frame -- a few short<br>braces per wall -- is far less extensive than the <br>bracing of a stud wall by diagonal board sheathing, let alone plywood. And<br>as timbers dry and shrink, some of the braces will <br>become less tight than they were at raising day. The old timber framed barn<br>I used to live in creaked in the wind. I once had <br>a conversation with Bruce King about timber frame and straw bale, and he agreed<br>that the plastered bale wall is stiffer than the <br>frame, and provides the bracing for the building if it is strong enough. <br><br>I would conclude then that if a house is going to be slammed by powerful winds,<br>the more uninterrupted expanses of plaster <br>on inside and outsides of the walls, the better. As we discussed at our winter<br>meeting, timbers break up the plaster walls <br>quite a lot, requiring all kinds of fussing around with air fins, caulks, gaskets,<br>and the like. These would also be potential air <br>leakage points, made more significant by the strong winds pushing and pulling<br>air around the house. I'd go with a hybrid <br>approach, with roof structure held up by door and window framing and a minimum<br>of additional members inside the bale walls <br>(a la Clark Sanders, and others), and posts and beams in the middle of the house<br>helping to hold up the roof or ceiling. <br>Timber ledgers fastened to exterior walls could catch the ends of timber joists,<br>if those are part of the design. This approach <br>ought to be cheaper as well.<br><br>I would also want to see a strong and well-cured plaster on the walls, and supported<br>on the foundation. This would be the <br>key to the house's wind resistance, in my mind. Supporting it on the foundation<br>means the house would be best off with a <br>continuous foundation at the base of the walls. <br><br>I'm not an engineer, so other strategies might suffice, but I believe this approach<br>would be the strongest and most reliable <br>over time. <br><br>Tying the house to the ground structurally would not only tend to make it stronger,<br>but also help make it able to weather <br>periods of no heat without freezing. This was a key design criterion of the<br>Buffalo House project in South Dakota, organized <br>by the Intertribal Council on Utility Policy and Laura Bartels. The HUD houses<br>built by the Tribal Housing Authority on the <br>Rosebud Lakota reservation were generally built on piers AND badly insulated.<br> They cost a fortune to heat in the Great Plains <br>winters, and when people were not there paying for heat, the pipes froze. <br>So the Buffalo House is a model project to show <br>that a HUD-style size and shape can be built with straw bales over a crawlspace,<br>with passive solar consideration in the <br>window design. Not only is it intended to be heated for much less cost, but<br>it is supposed to demonstrate "passive <br>survivability" i.e. not freeze when someone isn't home. Even if a homeowner<br>intends not to stop paying the heating bills in <br>the winter, this model suggests that there is a thermal advantage to putting<br>a house on the ground, and it is designed for a <br>similar climate to Alberta. (Intertribal COUP has a website for those interested.)<br><br><br>Thanks,<br>Sarah Highland<br><br><br><br><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">A majority of the strawbale houses, built to the Passiv Haus standard, that><br></blockquote>I visited in Europe a couple of years ago, were <br>built on piers. They had >massive insulation in the floors as well as the walls,<br>usually with strawba>les in the floor. All of <br>these houses had free air space between the groun>d and the top of the piers.<br> I asked whether this was a contradiction with <br><blockquote type="cite">the goal of maximum energy conservation. The reply was that the moisture r>isk<br></blockquote>created by blocking air flow is a serious <br>consideration, and sufficient> insulation takes care of the energy loss problem.<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Although Canada's maritime provinces don't have the extreme weather of Albe>rta,<br></blockquote>I believe that many of the SB houses <br>there are built on piers. Kim Th>ompson (sp?) may be able to tell us. <br><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Derelict<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Derek Roff<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On Sep 15, 2011, at 12:54 PM, <a href="mailto:ejgeorge@riseup.net">ejgeorge@riseup.net</a> wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Hey Mark & Alex,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">That's what we did for our house. Pier foundations with posts sitting on<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">the piers but the floor cantilevers out a bit to <br></blockquote>hold the bale walls (we we>nt with a full wrap instead of infill for less thermal<br>bridging and improve>d airtightness). The <br>entire floor cavity (including cantilever) is insulate>d with blown cellulose.<br>We then stacked stone underneath for a faux stone <br>f>oundation to 1) cut wind from blowing underneath and 2) aesthetics.<br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">You can see some of the details in photos on Aaron's website:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://www.tugleywood.com/">http://www.tugleywood.com/</a><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">(under photos, under Dennis-George House)<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">It certainly was the quickest and cheapest option, but has some cons too,><br></blockquote></blockquote>including all the general cons of uninsulated <br>crawlspaces such as critters> and convective heat loss under the floor (though<br>I have to say, the dry-la>id stone around the <br>perimeter did a surprising job cutting that down).<br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Also, I don't think it's as sturdy as a full foundation would be - e.g. i>f<br></blockquote></blockquote>someone really slams a door or the washing <br>machine gets unbalanced on the> spin cycle, you can feel the whole house vibrate<br>for a second. That could >be partially due <br>to the height of our piers (only 16" or so on one side of >the house but 3 1/2'<br>or so on the other as the grade slopes down). <br>This mig>ht be more significant when considering your cousin's wind extremes.<br>We're >somewhat exposed on a plateau and <br>get some good winds, but nothing near the> extent he'll be dealing with!<br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Feel free to contact Aaron & I if you have more questions or want more de>tails.<br></blockquote></blockquote><br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">ej<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">ej George, CSBA<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Quoting "Mark Piepkorn" <<a href="mailto:duckchow@potkettleblack.com">duckchow@potkettleblack.com</a>>:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Hi folks,<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">A question or two from Alex Wilson, who some of you know. If you don't,<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">see<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://www2.buildinggreen.com/about/people/alexwilson">http://www2.buildinggreen.com/about/people/alexwilson</a><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I attempted to write a brief synopsis here of his contributions to impro>ving<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>the built environment starting way back <br>before "green" was a word that> went with "building," and failed utterly. Suffice<br>it to say that he's more> than earned our most <br>thorough and considered responses. Please be sure to >CC him at <a href="mailto:alex@atwilson.com">alex@atwilson.com</a><br><br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">My cousin Allyn is considering building a timber-frame/straw-bale house><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>on a piece of land he owns in Alberta, <br>Canada. It is land adjoining his si>ster's ranch in the foothills of the Rockies<br>of southwestern Alberta. He wa>nts to build it <br>really cheaply and was thinking that he might save money by> avoiding a full<br>perimeter foundation--and going with piers or <br>something li>ke that. But I don't see how he would support the straw-bale walls<br>in this >case.<br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Any thoughts on that? Have you ever heard of someone doing that?<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Any resources I might recommend to him on building a low-cost timber-fr>ame/straw-bale<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>home? Or any really neat <br>designs you've seen?<br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The Chinook winds there are wicked, so I think a rugged timber frame is><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>an absolute must with straw-bale. Right near <br>the ranch, they've recorded a> _full week_ where the steady wind _never dropped<br>below 60 mph_ and a full >hour where the <br>steady wind never dropped below 100 mph!<br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">My cousin Lucy (Allyn's sister, who owns the ranch), with her then-husb>and,<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>built a timber-frame with in-fill straw-<br>bale walls maybe 25 years ago,> and as far as I know it's working great. The<br>bale walls are a huge benefit> in sound <br>deadening. With the very strong Chinook winds in the spring, the >constant noise<br>of the wind can drive people crazy--literally. <br>The suicide r>ate goes up in that region, apparently, when it's really windy<br>and people s>peculate that noise is the main <br>factor.<br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Thanks for any thoughts and suggestions you can share.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Hope you are well.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Cheers,<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">-Alex<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">39 Leonard Road<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Dummerston, VT 05301<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">/On sabbatical from BuildingGreen, Inc. through November, 2011/<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">802-257-0019 (H)<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">802-579-4858 (C)<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">www.atwilson.com <<a href="http://www.atwilson.com">http://www.atwilson.com</a>><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Twitter: <a href="http://twitter.com/atwilson">http://twitter.com/atwilson</a><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">/"Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">world is either a madman or an economist." <br></blockquote>Kenneth Boulding, circa 1980/<br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Strawbale on piers is doable. It's a reasonable choice for budget-minded><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>owner-builders, especially if they have big <br>wood for the floor sills as a >readily available local commodity. The thing<br>with that scheme is dealing wi>th the floor <br>insulation.<br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">It's easy enough to calc spans using common charts based on estimated we>ight.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>Considering his local soil qualities may <br>be important.<br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I think the best owner-builder designs are the simplest ones. Keep it si>mple<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>and well thought through. Don't wanna be <br>building some fancy folly for> years to come; get it over with and get on with<br>life. He might enjoy looki>ng around <br><a href="http://www.balewatch.com">www.balewatch.com</a><br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">With your permission I'd like to forward the pertinent parts of your not>e<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>to a small email list populated with a raft of <br>strawbale hotshots.<br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">I hope the sabbatical is doing wonders.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Mark<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">- - - - -<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">* NBNe email list home:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">https://lists.riseup.net/www/info/nbne<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">* NBNe email list archive:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">https://lists.riseup.net/www/arc/nbne<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">* NBNe email list shared documents:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">https://lists.riseup.net/www/d_read/nbne/<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">To access the above, you need a (free) riseup <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">login for the subscribed address. If you don't <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">have a login, get one at http://riseup.net/<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Trouble? nbne-admin@lists.riseup.net<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">- - - - -<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">http://www.nbne.org<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">- - - - -<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Derek Roff<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">derek@unm.edu<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">- - - - -<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">* NBNe email list home:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">https://lists.riseup.net/www/info/nbne<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">* NBNe email list archive:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">https://lists.riseup.net/www/arc/nbne<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">* NBNe email list shared documents:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">https://lists.riseup.net/www/d_read/nbne/<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">To access the above, you need a (free) riseup <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">login for the subscribed address. If you don't <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">have a login, get one at http://riseup.net/<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Trouble? nbne-admin@lists.riseup.net<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">- - - - -<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">http://www.nbne.org<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">- - - - -<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br>GSBN mailing list<br>GSBN@sustainablesources.com<br>http://sustainablesources.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/GSBN<br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>