Although I've also asked Beeel this question about thinning, and received the thick>>>thin regime, I would go with Tracy's scientific observations, since they also appeal to common sense and/or logic. So I wonder why Beeel's thick coat is frequently recommended, and I have a couple of thoughts on that..<div>
<br></div><div>If penetration is the goal, then Tracy's thin>>>thick program would do the trick better. I wonder, though, if we are we confusing about the proper prophylactics, that is, confusing 'penetration' with 'protection'. The appealing quality of linseed (and other oils), is that they create a leathery <b>coating</b> at the top of the earthen surface, so a technique that forms a coating in successive layers would be the most successful. Warm oil will assure easy and sufficient penetration and bonding, then thiner applications build up the protective sheath. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Just my two pesos in a wrapper about covering the earth with shoe leather....any more experiences to go by?</div><div><br></div><div>John "Oiled" Swearingen</div><div><br></div><div><br><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Tracy Vogel <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tactileinteriors@hughes.net">tactileinteriors@hughes.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div>
<font face="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="font-size:11pt">Hello all,<br>
Great discussion. Thank you.<br>
<br>
I’ve just caught up and read the thread. A couple of offerings...<br>
<br>
First thought: Since doing core tests of 5 different earthen floors sealed with linseed oil I have been a proponent of thinning the first layer and decreasing the thinner in successive layers. I’ve done it both ways and do agree that you don’t need a deep penetration into the floor to get the benefits of the sealer. However from the core samples, and other tests in my studio the regime with the first layer being thinned penetrates deeper. If the floor is gauged or injured the deeper penetrated floor does not abrade or dust as much as the thinner penetrated floor. This is convenient if one can not get to the repair quickly.<br>
<br>
Second thought: There was a floor in New Mexico that we tore out to replace. It was over 45 years old and had five layers of floor that were laid on top of each other over the years. The first, bottom, layer was a blood floor. The regime, as I understood it from those who laid it, was fresh blood added to the mix with the water. They also rubbed a blood clay aliz to finish it. If they could not get Ox blood they would use what was available, cow or elk. As we chunked the layers out it was amazing in that this first layer was still much stronger than the ones laid on top of it. It was easy to remove it cleanly from the other layers and came out in much larger plates.<br>
<br>
Third thought: Linseed oil in the mix. I’m not a big proponent of linseed oil at a plaster wall sealer but was faced with a strange mix last year that we fortified with linseed oil. At very small quantities in the plaster it did not change color, became amazingly water resistant, stronger and yet was still repairable. Could this not apply to a floor mix. Why not put the sealer (linseed oil) in it?<br>
<br>
Tracy<div><div></div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
On 3/18/11 8:32 AM, "Bill" <<a href="http://bill@caneloproject.com" target="_blank">bill@caneloproject.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div></div></span></font><blockquote><div><div></div><div class="h5"><blockquote><font size="1"><font face="Helvetica, Verdana, Arial"><span style="font-size:9pt"><br>
If you're going to use multiple coats of oil on the floor, don't you want the FIRST coat to be thinned, and therefore penetrate better, and then progressively thin subsequent coats less and less?<br>
</span></font></font></blockquote><font face="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="font-size:11pt"><br>
So would a carpenter think so, wood is a lot less porous. Or so I would say. Therefore, we've always gotten the best results by applying full strength oil, letting it penetrate, which it does so well and then using the solvents to get a little additional oil soaked in. But hey, as they say down here, every maestro has own libro (book of tricks) and whatever you can get to work, then that oughta be good.<br>
</span></font><blockquote><font size="1"><font face="Helvetica, Verdana, Arial"><span style="font-size:9pt"><br>
Also: am I the only one who is uncomfortable about the idea of using edible oils (i.e., food) in construction? My discomfort is partly because that oil is food to all sorts of critters, but also because one way or another you are, by using it, sort of removing it from a hungry person's mouth.<br>
</span></font></font></blockquote><font face="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="font-size:11pt"><br>
Well since linseed = flax, flaxseed oil is clearly a food and we've never had problems with it especially when one considers that the oil is typically laced with solvents. If you stop and think about it, most oils are edible in one form or another. Haven't consumed any used motor oil recently, but I can assure you that the critters won't care for it.<br>
<br>
At least down here, termites are the big issue and when they have options for mud mixes with straw, I don't think the linseed oil would be of much interest to them. At least the Mexican termites don't seem to have an interest in flax based products.<br>
<br>
Bill<br>
</span></font></div></div><blockquote><div><div></div><div class="h5"><font size="1"><font face="Helvetica, Verdana, Arial"><span style="font-size:9pt"><br>
Bruce "Big Mouth" King<br>
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<br>
On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:53 AM, Bill wrote:<br>
<br>
</span></font></div></div><blockquote><div><div></div><div class="h5"><font face="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="font-size:11pt">I'm in Mexico working without much internet access, but let me pick up this thread.<br>
There were questions about adding glues to the floor mix. We experimented intensively years ago with every glue imaginable.<br>
Basically I see no reason unless the oil being used on the floor doesn't harden it sufficiently and there is need for additional strength.<br>
They can add strength if needed.<br>
Or if the clay content is low, it can help make up for the lack.<br>
If linseed oil is available, then it is usually more than sufficient if the floor mix is well done.<br>
Perhaps the glues will be of assistance when using other types of oils. In other words, the linseed oil hardens as well as seals from water.<br>
So, if we use what I will call for now an interior oil, then maybe the glue will make up the difference.<br>
As for the blood Tina asked about it needs to be fresh and added to the floor mix, at least the upper layers to work well.<br>
There is not a lot of information out there about using blood, sketchy at best.<br>
The Weisman book basically repeats what we wrote about early in the Straw Bale House and have been using ever since.<br>
It is still the basic formula given to us back in the early 90s in New Mexico by a woman named Anita Rodriguez.<br>
However there is a serious flaw in what they have written and that has to do with not using Raw linseed oil.<br>
Boiled linseed oil is full of driers and assorted chemical compounds, the odor is usually very objectionable.<br>
We take our raw linseed oil, put it in a shallow tub with a glass cover and leave it in the sun for a few weeks.<br>
The resulting product is called sun-thickened linseed oil and what happens is that it helps pre-oxidize the oil and therefore improves its drying time.<br>
If the surface of the floor is not densely troweled, the oil will penetrate just fine by itself. The solvents are then added to get additional penetration after the first coat. When the oil is hot and the floor warm, obviously it penetrates better. But hot oil does not necessarily eliminate the need for a solvent. Depends upon how many coats of oil are being used. If more than one is desired, then the addition of a solvent will be needed.<br>
Hey, you might be happy with one coat of oil, but more than likely, additional coats will give better results.<br>
<br>
And for now, I'll go back to continue working on the first building we have done in Mexico in over 12 years near the ocean on salty ground, where metal rusts rapidly and there are more concentrations of termites than almost anywhere in the world and wood gets eaten overnight.<br>
<br>
Bill<br>
On Mar 17, 2011, at 6:42 AM, Van Krieken wrote:<br>
<br>
</span></font></div></div><blockquote><div><div></div><div class="h5"><font face="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="font-size:11pt">There is a quite detailled chapter about earther floors in this book: Building with Cob, by Adam Weismann & Kathy Brice. <br>
I sugest you get this book, a great step-by-step guide.<br>
<br>
Concerning the sealant: (in page 172):<br>
<br>
«(...) In the past, animal urine and blood were used to acieve the sealant. These days it is more common to use boiled (NOT RAW) linseed oil mixed with a solvent such as turpentine, or citrus oils for a more enviromentally friendly option.<br>
The solvent acts to assist penetration of the oil deep into the pore spaces of the floor. Without it the oil will simply form a shell on the surface of the floor, wich will be easly broken and damage. Another option is to boil the boiled linseed oil, wich assists penetration of the oil into the floor and thus eliminates the need to add a thinner.<br>
<br>
The formula is as follows:<br>
<br>
1st coat: 100% boiled linseed oil<br>
2nd coat: 75% boiled linseed oil/25% thinner<br>
3rd coat: 50% boiled linseed oil/50% thinner<br>
4th coat: 25% boiled linseed oil/75% thinner<br>
<br>
Mix the oil and the solvent together in a bucket and apply evenly using a paintbrush<br>
Aloow each coat to dry between each aplication, and when the floor no longer feels tacky to the touch.<br>
<br>
Apply final beeswax polish.»<br>
<br>
Good floors!<br>
<br>
<br>
Jorge Van Krieken<br>
<br>
<br>
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 1:07 PM, tina therrien <<a href="http://strawbus@auracom.com" target="_blank">strawbus@auracom.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</span></font></div></div><blockquote><div><div></div><div class="h5"><font face="Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="font-size:11pt">Hi guys. I am leaning towards trying some blood for the sealer of the earth floor in our straw house, at least for part of it- does anyone have an actual old-time recipe? I don't have any of my old school plaster books here- if you can help me along, I'd appreciate it!<br>
<br>
thx,<br>
tina<br>
<br>
On 16-Mar-11, at 10:10 AM, MARK SCHUENEMAN wrote:<br>
<br>
</span></font></div></div><blockquote><font size="2"><font face="Tahoma, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt"><div><div></div><div class="h5"> <br>
Greetings All, <br>
<br>
Has anyone noticed any adverse or positive effects of oils applied to floors with additives in the mix...such as casein, dung, blood, wheat paste, whatever? And, I would guess that warming the oil, whatever oil, would help the penetration. Heating it to too high of a temp may not be recommended. I have some cob window sills that look beautiful but they need a sealer to be most effective. All of this chatter (I say with all due respect) has helped me with my future experimentation with finishing these sills. I look forward to hearing how the Haiti project turns out. Thanks all. <br>
<br>
Gratefully,<br>
Mark Schueneman<br>
Colorado Straw Bale Association<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr align="CENTER" size="3" width="100%">From: <a href="http://graeme@ecodesign.co.nz" target="_blank">graeme@ecodesign.co.nz</a><br>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 16:11:58 +1300<br>
To: <a href="http://GSBN@greenbuilder.com" target="_blank">GSBN@greenbuilder.com</a><br>
Subject: Re: [GSBN] earthen floor sealer in Haiti<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi there Tina<br>
<br>
My painting genius friend has offered to carry out some trials with various oils on unfired clay tiles to help with sorting this out - so any pointers to readily available oils over there would be very welcome I am sure<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
cheers<br>
<br>
<br>
Graeme<br>
Graeme North Architects<br>
49 Matthew Road<br>
RD1<br>
Warkworth<br>
tel/fax <a href="tel:%2B64%20%280%299%204259305" target="_blank">+64 (0)9 4259305</a><br>
<br>
<a href="http://graeme@ecodesign.co.nz" target="_blank">graeme@ecodesign.co.nz</a><br>
<br>
</div></div><a href="http://www.ecodesign.co.nz" target="_blank">www.ecodesign.co.nz</a> <<a href="http://www.ecodesign.co.nz/" target="_blank">http://www.ecodesign.co.nz/</a>> <br><div class="im">
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<br>
On 15/03/2011, at 11:43 AM, tina therrien wrote:<br>
<br>
</div></span></font></font><blockquote><font size="2"><font face="Tahoma, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt"><div class="im"> Thanks for all of your suggestions & input for the sealer- Jean Louis, one of our Haitian builders, is going to try to procure coconut oil from the market, which we'll test, although he just arrived, and as with many materials here, the coconut oil is proving more difficult and expensive to find than originally anticipated. If we do the finish floor today or tomorrow, there should be enough time for it to cure by Saturday. Apparently they slaughter a cow just down the laneway every Saturday, so we may even be able to use some cow blood to seal the floor. <br>
<br>
I have found reference to molasses before in terms of finishes, and am now even more curious about it, but don't think we'll have time to try it out here, at least not for this project. <br>
<br>
<br>
Any other tips for earthen floors, either finish coat or for sealing, are welcome. I'll stay in close touch with Andy Mueller regarding the floor- I know he wishes he was here to work on it! Pics to come.<br>
<br>
<br>
In reply to André (and hi, André, by the by!), the BWB website has a page about this project- both a blog and a photo gallery (<a href="http://www.builderswithoutborders.org/" target="_blank">http://www.builderswithoutborders.org/</a>) Apart from that, both Andy Mueller & I have blogs. My personal blog is about various natural building projects I'm involved with here, and personal impressions of being in Haiti...certainly not all about building, but there are a few segments dedicated to building (including compressed earth block, earth bag, and soon to be light clay/straw if all goes well). <a href="http://strawhomes.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">http://strawhomes.blogspot.com/</a> (you'll have to skim through to find building photos & stories).<br>
<br>
<br>
tina<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Camel's Back Construction<br>
Quality, handcrafted homes<br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><font face="'trebuchet ms', sans-serif"><span style="font-size:x-small"><font color="#666666">John Swearingen<br>Skillful Means Design & Construction<br>2550 9th Street Suite 209A<br>
Berkeley, CA 94710<br>510.849.1800 phone<br>510.849.1900 fax<br><br>Web Site: <a href="http://www.skillful-means.com" target="_blank">http://www.skillful-means.com</a><br>Blog: <a href="https://skillfulmeansdesign.wordpress.com" target="_blank">https://skillfulmeansdesign.wordpress.com</a></font></span></font><br>
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