<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi Bruce - you set a challenge<div><br></div><div>The only security I can think of to prevent de-lamination is doing you best to ensure that the earth will stay pretty dry, and left with a well keyed and very fibrous surface that will tie the lime to it. </div><div><br></div><div>One Japanese technique I have heard of, but not tried, to ensure that earthen plaster layers do not delaminate in earthquakes looks very time consuming. It involves tying short lengths of rope or string (baling twine?) into the structure at frequent intervals all over the wall, and then progressively pulling these through each layer of plaster as they are laid up. Can't see why it would not work using LoE. Might be worth a trial as a mechanical way of holding plaster layers in place.</div><div><br></div><div>PS Some engineers and I are venturing into the NZ earthquake zone in a couple of weeks to see how earthen and strawbale building have performed - very few reposts have come out yet, as the major efforts are still on search and rescue, and survival for those in the worst hit areas.</div><div><br></div><div><br><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div>Graeme</div><div>Graeme North Architects</div><div>49 Matthew Road</div><div>RD1</div><div>Warkworth</div><div>tel/fax +64 (0)9 4259305</div><div> </div><div><a href="mailto:graeme@ecodesign.co.nz">graeme@ecodesign.co.nz</a></div><div><a href="http://www.ecodesign.co.nz">www.ecodesign.co.nz</a></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span>
</div>
<br><div><div>On 2/03/2011, at 9:11 AM, Bruce King wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><br></div>Hi, folks, we've got a bit of a debate going as to what constitutes a security barrier, which is fine by me, but I for one would really like to hear more about lime plasters over earth.<div><br></div><div>Answers so far, as well as my experience, suggest that LoE (lime over earth) systems work very well if, and only if, you have a familiar and consistent mix of lime, clay, straw, etc. All of the ingredients are finicky (you can't just substitute one lime for another, or one clay for another), all depend on careful workmanship (application, curing, scratching, etc.), none are for newbies.</div><div><br></div><div>In Haiti, though we will have one or two pros running things (maybe some of y'all), we will be working with a Haitian crew of unknown skill, using clay, sand and lime whose properties and behavior are unknown.</div><div><br></div><div>Are we crazy to even contemplate a LoE system? Remember, this will be a very public house seen and scrutinized by a lot of people and organizations. There's no room for screwups or excuses. If it cracks, or delaminates, or in some other way fails, the whole project looks bad.</div><div><br></div><div>We'd rather look good. Any further advice would be much appreciated.</div><div><br></div><div>PS to Graeme North: thanks for the tips, I know that cintoflex is good stuff, and may even be available in Haiti. And prayers for New Zealand, you guys got hit hard. Prayers for Haiti, too; a year after their earthquake, the city and country still look like it happened a week ago, there's that little recovery. Poverty, dysfunctional government, and a lack of infrastructure is a fairly deadly combination that even the most noble and intelligent people (as are Haitians) can barely overcome.</div><div><br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">Thanks,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; font-size: 12px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">Bruce King, PE</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">Director of <font class="Apple-style-span" face="Sketcher" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px; ">EBNet</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Sketcher" size="4"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px; ">Ecological Building Network</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><b><i>the art and science of building well</i></b></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><a href="mailto:bruce@ecobuildnetwork.org">bruce@ecobuildnetwork.org</a> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">PO Box 6397</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">San Rafael, CA 94903 USA</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">(415) 987-7271</div></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">follow us on Twitter: @EBNetwork</div></div></span></div></span> </div><br><div><div>On Mar 1, 2011, at 11:43 AM, Andy Horn wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-GB" link="blue" vlink="blue"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="country-region"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="place"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" name="City"><div class="Section1" style="page: Section1; "><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="green" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: green; ">Hi Martin<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="green" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: green; ">I agree it is more about securing the windows and doors.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="green" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: green; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="green" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: green; ">Plaster aside, for anyone who has not yet tried – but getting through a wall of straw is no mean feat.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="green" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: green; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="green" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: green; ">I once got called in to look at saving storm wrecked load bearing SB after the guys building had left for a long weekend without covering up ……so I helped with cutting out chunks of un-plastered wall, so as to retrofit in sets of load bearing timber posts. Armed with a chainsaw you would be surprised at just how difficult it was.<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="green" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: green; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="green" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: green; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="green" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: green; ">Andy Horn<o:p></o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="green" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: green; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="green" face="Arial"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial; color: green; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" color="green" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt; color: green; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="green" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: green; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; text-align: center; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 12pt; "><hr size="2" width="100%" align="center" tabindex="-1"></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold; ">From:</span></font></b><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:GSBN-bounces@greenbuilder.com">GSBN-bounces@greenbuilder.com</a> [<a href="mailto:GSBN-bounces@greenbuilder.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">mailto:GSBN-bounces@greenbuilder.com</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b>martin hammer<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Sent:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>01 March 2011 05:54 AM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">To:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(private, with public archives) Global Straw Building Network<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold; ">Subject:</span></b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [GSBN] building in<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Haiti</st1:place></st1:country-region></span></font><span lang="EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><span style="font-size: 12pt; "><o:p> </o:p></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0cm; margin-right: 0cm; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="3" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Arial; ">Bruce, all,<br><br>Although on the EBNet<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Haiti</st1:place></st1:country-region><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>team (in addition to the BWB SB Haiti team), I'll jump into the GSBN forum with a couple thoughts on the plaster and the security issue.<br><br>The security concern will be greater in some locations than others. Generally, the more urban the greater the concern. It seems obvious that both in perception and as a physical obstacle, mesh reinforced cement plaster would be the most secure plaster, and I’ll say probably secure enough. (Notwithstanding Derek’s proposed method of breaking and entering, that still takes time, effort, makes noise, etc, and thus is a deterrent). In some cases clay, or lime plaster may not be enough, in other cases it will. Installing a second plaster on the inside face of the bamboo framing would provide additional security (real and perceived). <br><br>For the Home Expo building I suggest installing a cement plaster (with up to 50% lime if you can get your hands on it) on half the building, and a clay plaster with a durable finish on the other half. With and without a second plaster on the interior. Let people see how they both feel, look, and sound, and allow them to decide which would work for their circumstance.<br> <br>Cordaid, a Dutch organization, built a prototype wood-framed house in<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Leogane</st1:city>,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:country-region w:st="on">Haiti</st1:country-region></st1:place><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>with no less than 7 enclosure-finish systems. (I can send photos, if you haven't seen it already.) I think it goes too far to the point of being chaotic/confusing. But a couple variations in one prototype building seems valid to me. Looking at opposite corners you might only see one finish at a time.<br><br>In terms of security, doors and windows (shutters?) will probably be a greater point of vulnerability than the wall enclosure system. I would show how that can be addressed on at least one opening. <br><br>Also, although security can be a serious issue in parts of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Haiti</st1:place></st1:country-region><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>(and other places in the world!), there of course is much more to consider about this building . . .<br><br>Martin Hammer <br><br><br>On 2/28/11 6:15 PM, "Andrew Webb" <<a href="x-msg://38/andrew@thegreenwebb.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">andrew@thegreenwebb.com</a>> wrote:<br><br><font color="blue"><span style="color: blue; ">> Except perhaps in perception - concrete may be less tempting to try to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> break through than clay (if it is obviously clay) even if doing so is<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> just as easy. The finish and the image it projects is likely a factor.<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> -Andrew Webb<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>> On 1/03/2011 11:41 AM, john rehorn wrote:<br></span></font><font color="green"><span style="color: green; ">>> Good point, Derek. Thick clay or lime would be as good a 'vandal wall' as<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> one inch of cementatious.<br>>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>>> John Reho<br>>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br></span></font><font color="blue"><span style="color: blue; ">> _______________________________________________<br>> GSBN mailing list<br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="x-msg://38/GSBN@greenbuilder.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">GSBN@greenbuilder.com</a><br>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/GSBN" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/GSBN</a></span></font></span></font><o:p></o:p></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>GSBN mailing list<br><a href="mailto:GSBN@greenbuilder.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">GSBN@greenbuilder.com</a><br><a href="http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/GSBN" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/GSBN</a><br></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>GSBN mailing list<br><a href="mailto:GSBN@greenbuilder.com">GSBN@greenbuilder.com</a><br>http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/GSBN<br></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>