<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><br></div><div><br></div>Aren't we all in a festive Rastra-bashing mood.<div><br></div><div>I agree with John Straube & David Arkin that the most important aspect of any sub-grade construction is the waterproofing/drainage system (my own summary, correct me if wrong). Still, Rastra and AAC are VERY porous, and I just wouldn't be comfortable having them between me and soggy dirt.</div><div><br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; 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font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div><div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">Here's mud in your eyes, Baleheads!</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; font-size: 12px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">Bruce King</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; "><a href="http://www.ecobuildnetwork.org">www.ecobuildnetwork.org</a> </div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; font-size: 12px; ">(415) 987-7271</div></span></div></span></span></div></div></div></span></div></div></div></span></span></div></span></div></span></div></span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; ">follow us on Twitter: @EBNetwork</span></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div><br><div><div>On Dec 23, 2010, at 11:46 AM, David Arkin, AIA wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi All:<div><br></div><div>We've used PISE (earth-cement) and ARXX (an insulated concrete form system) for retaining below grade (both engineered by Bruce King, come to think of it) with success. The key to these (or any) material below grade is in the waterproofing and subsurface water control, which for us most typically includes Paraseal (bentonite clay) and a drainage structure leading to a perforated drain pipe at the footing. </div><div><br></div><div>In any case assume that some part of it is going to get wet at some point, so materials that are damaged by moisture shouldn't be used. I don't believe that precludes Rastra or AAC, as both are reasonably moisture resistant. I've heard similar criticisms of Rastra being a pain to work with (heavy, cumbersome, etc.). </div><div><br></div><div>The ARXX systems allowed us to use 8" of concrete where a standard poured wall would've been 12"; this was for a project with 10'+ retaining walls (not a Bruce project), saving us 33% of the concrete. </div><div><br></div><div>I myself like the Tridi System (aka Insteel 3-D) for insulated walls below grade, as it puts the insulation in the middle and protective coatings on the outside. One has to increase the thickness and reinforcing on the retaining side for taller walls. I'm also intrigued with shallow, frost-protected footings instead of basements to get below the frost line, but we don't have much occasion to need these here in California.</div><div><br></div><div>Holiday Cheer!!</div><div><br></div><div>David</div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Dec 23, 2010, at 11:18 AM, John Swearingen wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; ">Bruce, you sound so equivocal about this. Can't you be more definite?<div>John<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Bruce King<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ecobruce@sbcglobal.net">ecobruce@sbcglobal.net</a>></span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; "><br>We couldn't stop Rastra from leaking ABOVE grade. It, and AAC, is highly porous. Don't even think about using it below grade.<div class="im"><br><br>Thanks,<br><br>Bruce King<br><a href="http://www.ecobuildnetwork.org/" target="_blank">www.ecobuildnetwork.org</a><br>(415) 987-7271<br>follow us on Twitter: @EBNetwork<br><br><br><br><br><br></div><div><div></div><div class="h5">On Dec 23, 2010, at 9:29 AM, Derek Roff wrote:<br><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; ">What about moisture issues with Rastra, and other insulated concrete form (ICF) systems that use expanded polystyrene? ICFs are recommended by many people for below-grade work (pun intended). Yet expanded polystyrene can take on a significant amount of water. I'm imagining that this could compromise the foam, through cracking and spalling, as well as reducing the insulation values.<br><br>Is this a problem, or have the manufacturers found a way around it?<br><br>Derelict<br><br>--On Thursday, December 23, 2010 9:01 AM -0800 John Swearingen <<a href="mailto:jswearingen@skillful-means.com" target="_blank">jswearingen@skillful-means.com</a>> wrote:<br><br>I worked as a volunteer on a project with Rastra, a temple with high walls. As Derek says, it's difficult to love--the dust is awful and the blocks are, well, grungy blocks. This was probably one of the few applications where the massive concrete gridwork inside the forms made any sense, but the mass is all inside the insulation, and so doesn't do that much good otherwise.<br><br><br>It's amazing how Rastra persists as a popular choice--I think it's because at first look it seems like Legos. I've had to deliver my rap on it several times to clients who were initially enamored with it. I wouldn't build with it.<br><br><br>John "RastraRap" Swearingen<br><br></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div></span></blockquote></div><br><div> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">* * * * *</div><div>Arkin Tilt Architects</div><div>Ecological Planning & Design</div><div><br></div><div>David Arkin, AIA, Architect</div><div>LEED Accredited Professional</div><div>CA #C22459/NV #5030</div><div><br></div><div>1101 8th St. #180, Berkeley, CA 94710</div><div>510/528-9830</div><div><a href="http://www.arkintilt.com">www.arkintilt.com</a></div><div><br></div><div>"There is no way to peace. Peace is the way."</div><div>— A. J. Muste </div><div><br></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span></span></span></div></span></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div> <br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>GSBN mailing list<br><a href="mailto:GSBN@greenbuilder.com">GSBN@greenbuilder.com</a><br>http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/GSBN<br></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>