<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><br></div><div><br></div>Hi, everyone. I've been immersed in this subject for the past four years as I've written an ASTM standard (now nearly complete), and studied the large stack of technical papers and field reports by a small group of engineers and builders from all over the world. I generally agree with everything that's been said on this listserve, with a few additions & corrections:<div><br></div><div>1) fibers make stronger bricks, but not necessarily better walls. Weak bricks will ALWAYS give a weak wall, but a strong wall requires strong bricks, thin, well-bonded mortar joints, and good workmanship.</div><div><br></div><div>2) fiber -- that is, tensile reinforcing -- is crucial to getting any amount of seismic safety. You want reinforcing wherever the wall tends to crack, especially wall corners and openings, and especially around the top (the "crown beam" Lorenzo referred to, also called a top beam, collar beam, bond beam, or ring beam)</div><div><br></div><div>3) mesh, whether outside or inside the wall, serves to hold everything together even when it does crack, thus keeping pieces of wall from falling off and bonking you in the head. The basket effect.</div><div><br></div><div>4) earthen buildings are really bad in earthquakes, because they are heavy, soft, and brittle. Three things you don't want. But people build with earth because it's cheap and available, so we're working out how to make it safer -- primarily with tensile mesh and reinforcing.</div><div><br></div><div>5) the much-vaunted barbed wire reinforcing system for earthbag houses is as yet completely unproven for carrying any, especially seismic, loads, and in my opinion is just deceptively bad. I know this from bitter experience, having gone over Nader Khalili's tests 12 years ago in excruciating detail, and trying to get Nader, Iliona, or their engineer to explain or fill in the missing parts. They couldn't, and I see all of that earthbag testing as badly conceived, designed, executed and reported. I don't want to posthumously slam Nader, just suppress an overblown and unpromising technology. We could never get our earthbag domes to stop leaking, either. Phooey.</div><div><br></div><div>So build with earth, baleheads, and enjoy it! But don't kid yourself -- an earth wall is not a thermal insulator, and is very hard to make safe in an earthquake.</div><div> <br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Thanks,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">Bruce "dirtbag" King</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">(415) 987-7271</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font: normal normal normal 12px/normal Helvetica; ">bruce-king.com </div></div></div></span></div></span> </div><br><div><div>On Aug 18, 2009, at 1:33 AM, Lorenzo Robles wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class="hmmessage" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; "><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; ">Hello Alex,</font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "><br></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "><br></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "> yes I will try to give more detailed description _ but unfortunately no photos available from that beautifull old house, at the time the walls were opened., my long stay in Lima ended more than 25 years ago, though the memory is vivid. As attachment, there are a few photos found on the web, that illustrate somehow the system, an show comparison between reinforced and non-reinforced adobe walls.</font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "><br></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "><br></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "> The old thick walls were about 70cm wide, and the bricks dismanteled by the workers looked hairy, like the handmade type including fiber. The fiber may have been straw, or drie local grass or fiber from plants ,lots of very tough growing on hillside and semi desertic near Lima _sorry again no botanical name to suggest.</font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "><br></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "><br></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "> There were 2 bricks end to end across the wall,on cossing course; so each brick had a length of about 35 cm; the other dimensions I cant tell sure, perhaps like 20 and 10, .<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "><br></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "> The netting was central, showing vertical cane sticks about 50 cm distant, less for the horizontal sticks, like 20 or 22cm, probably embracing one of every two courses of adobe bricks. As often , the courses alterned parallel and transversal (crossing) layers of bricks. the canes were not tied, but webed _like in our grannies baskets. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "><br></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "> I remember well staying a long time to observe the dismantling job, and discussing with other, older people, who where commenting how strong ang good this netting was to help the wall against the hazard of collapsing after those earthquakes. A few weeks before, a strong shake had damagesd several houses in the area we lived, so these discussions ment something to everyone.</font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "><br></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "> At that time I wasnt involved in building, though feeling very concerned by earthquaques. I havn't had the opportunity to copy or adapt this combination of adobe/webed canes reinforcement, because my earth constructions werent really in sismical high risk areas.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "><br></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "><br></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; ">A tip from my humble experience:</font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "><br></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "> _for added strength, the choice of the mud or clay used for the adobes is very important, as they should not be able to "burst into dust" when dropped, once fully dried. The mud must be sticky enough, and a generous proportion of hcked straw or other fiber ("schaff") added when mixing, is structurally very good. A good test is to drop the dry brick from a meter hight. It should not break, or at least, give only 2 pieces.</font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "><br></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "><br></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; ">_think of a "crown beam" connecting from the top all 4 walls, and are the connection for roof or terrace beams.</font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "><br></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "><br></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "><br></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; ">All the best,</font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "><br></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "><br></font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; ">Lorenzo</font><font size="3" style="font-size: 12pt; "><br></font><br><div class="ExternalClass" id="MsgContainer"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "></span><br><br><hr id="EC_stopSpelling">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:lotan-build@lotan.ardom.co.il" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">lotan-build@lotan.ardom.co.il</a><br>To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:lorobles55@hotmail.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">lorobles55@hotmail.com</a><br>CC:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:jc10508@windstream.net" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">jc10508@windstream.net</a><br>Subject: RE: [GSBN] earthquake-proof adobe walls<br>Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 14:08:13 +0200<br><br><div class="EC_EC_Section1"><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">Dear Lorenzo,</span></font></div><p class="EC_EC_MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "> </span></font></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">The detail of the fiber net is, in your words, a critical element.</span></font></div><p class="EC_EC_MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "> </span></font></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">Your explanation is not clear. You typed (there may be some incorrect letters):</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; ">"</span></font><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; ">The workers had to take brick by brick, an saw each cane to release de digged trough area. it took much more time than with simple adobe. "</span></font></div><p class="EC_EC_MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; "> </span></font></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; ">Please expand your description. Also, would you be able to send me, or post for all, some photographs of the net, a cross section of a wall that show the interplay between the adobe brick and the netting. Also, what size are the earth bricks, were they "hand" molded or compressed and do they have fibers (straw or other) in them?</span></font></div><p class="EC_EC_MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; "> </span></font></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; ">Thank you. This information is very important for our work, also a seismically active area, with low cost housing for Bedouins in southern Israel and Palestine.</span></font></div><p class="EC_EC_MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; "> </span></font></p><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" face="Verdana"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana; ">Alex</span></font><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "></span></font></div><p class="EC_EC_MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="navy" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy; "> </span></font></p><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black; ">Alex Cicelsky</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black; ">Center for Creative Ecology</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="1" color="black" face="Arial Narrow"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Arial Narrow'; color: black; ">a non-profit education institute supported by</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="1" color="black" face="Arial Narrow"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Arial Narrow'; color: black; ">Amuta Tzel Hatamar, Israel tax exempt no.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><span dir="rtl"></span><font size="1" color="black" face="Arial"><span dir="rtl" lang="AR-SA" style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: Arial; color: black; "><span dir="rtl"></span>580347029</span></font><span dir="ltr"></span><font size="1" color="black" face="Arial Narrow"><span lang="AR-SA" style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Arial Narrow'; color: black; "><span dir="ltr"></span></span></font><font size="1" color="black" face="Arial Narrow"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Arial Narrow'; color: black; "></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="1" color="black" face="Arial Narrow"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family: 'Arial Narrow'; color: black; ">Friends of Lotan, USA 501(c)(3), no. 17053031035036</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black; ">Kibbutz Lotan</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black; ">D.N. Eilot 88855 Israel</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black; ">Tel: +972-(0)54-979-9009</span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black; ">Websites:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.kibbutzlotan.com/" title="http://www.kibbutzlotan.com/" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; "><font color="black"><span style="color: black; ">www.kibbutzlotan.com</span></font></a></span></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-top: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'; "><font size="2" color="black" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: black; "><a href="http://www.birdingisrael.com/" title="http://www.birdingisrael.com/" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; "><font color="black"><span style="color: black; ">www.birdingisrael.com</span></font></a></span></font></div></div></div></div><br><br><hr>Souhaitez vous « ętre au bureau sans y ętre » ?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.microsoft.com/france/windows/bts/default.mspx" target="_new">Oui je le veux !</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span><Construction of Cane Reinforcement.doc></span>_______________________________________________<br>GSBN mailing list<br><a href="mailto:GSBN@greenbuilder.com">GSBN@greenbuilder.com</a><br><a href="http://greenbuilder.com/mailman/listinfo/GSBN">http://greenbuilder..com/mailman/listinfo/GSBN</a><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>